Global Warming News

[aczlan]

Here is my $0.02 on the whole healthcare mess
To adapt the Project Triangle:

• Fast Service
• High Quality Care
• Inexpensive Healthcare

Choose any two.

Without majorly changing the rules of healthcare (ie: make it possible for healthcare providers to do more for less money without sacrificing quality or the low wait times that we generally have) you CANNOT break free of that metaphor. Being as that does not appear to be happening any time soon, I do not forsee the rules changing. If the "Healthcare Entitlement (or is that Reform) Bill" passes, it will not change these rules, it will just change who is paying for healthcare.

You can cut overall costs by having lower volumes of people being accepted for treatment, you can cut costs by lowering quality levels down, or you can keep quality and speed but pay through the nose for it.

If more people go to a system that pays at medicare rates, you will see some doctors not accepting that system, you will see others lowering quality down so that they have less costs. If it costs them $500 to do a procedure (not I said COST, not what they bill it as) and they get paid $250 from the insurance company (be it a government ins co or a private one), the difference has to come from somewhere or they will have to shut down.

I would suspect that at this time, doctors who take medicare patients make up for the difference in their costs and what they get paid by charging others more. In effect, they are subsidizing medicare at the cost of everyone else.

Back to lurking...

Aaron Z

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

You really are shameless. You are comparing Prokop's experience inside a death spiraling socialist country quasi-existing in the shadow of the USSR to exactly who or what - may I ask?

It took many years to ruin E. European countries, which used to be glorious places of learning. It will take many years to rebuild them, even countries which enjoyed relative freedom like the Czech Republic - which used to have a Slovakia attached to it. Just the stable environment that would produce a first-class healthcare system. - Yeah right.
Dave.

Well Gee,
America.
I really find it interesting that you use the Phrase "Glorious places of Learning" Ask Prokop is they were "Glorious places of Learning"And if they enjoyed "freedom" relative or not.
And yes, it will take years if not decades of rebuilding from the nightmare that is Socialism.
What we need in this country are more "czars" not answerable to anyone other then the president, and who are fond of Mao.
Shameless, I think not, what I would is say is that I am proud, to be an American. You?

 

[Pilot]

I agree that the quality of care will vary and not all countries with socialized medicine will have the problems that are widely talked about. I suspect to some extent the smaller countries with less diversity will have better systems. Nothing I have read, just my observations and probably lots of exceptions. But for example, until the financial crisis Iceland seemed to be well run--300,000 people whose complaints could be heard by the government. Almost all of Danish (or Norwegian?) descent, spoke 2 common languages--Icelandic and English. A common value system and few criminals. I saw women leave their babies in carriages on the sidewalk while they went into a store to shop. Criminals were let out of prison on national holidays--where could they go? The cops in every village knew who they were. But we have a diverse countries with many subcultures and different value systems within different subcultures.

Little different aspect: My daughter in law was raised in Russia, a member of the Young Communists (in order to get ahead, not because of philosophy) and was in Red Square when the Soviet Union collapsed when Yeltsin became a hero on the tank. Each neighborhood was assigned to a particular doctor. If he/she was good, caring and not a drunk, you were lucky. Dentists didn't use pain killers. But health care was free. This is the other extreme from our system and that of many countries. But just note, when government budgets are tight, procedures, supplies and health care professionals will be scarce. With a private system, shortages increase prices which in turn increase supply.

BTW, my son married her when he was in the Peace Corps outside Moscow. He was teaching English in one of their schools. The school was a mess, most student's felt their future was hopeless and didn't try. He graded as he deemed appropriate, but the school director changed most of them to make everyone pass and to give some very good grades. To not do so would make the school look bad,and make her look bad. People in Russia in general don't believe they can change anything; that the government and the cliques will do as they please.

Lia's parents are here now; her father is a programmer and he came (legally) on one of those visa's for skills in short supply. All 3 are now citizens and would never consider going back.

 

[keegs]

Here is my $0.02 on the whole healthcare mess
To adapt the Project Triangle:

• Fast Service
• High Quality Care
• Inexpensive Healthcare

Choose any two.

Without majorly changing the rules of healthcare (ie: make it possible for healthcare providers to do more for less money without sacrificing quality or the low wait times that we generally have) you CANNOT break free of that metaphor. Being as that does not appear to be happening any time soon, I do not forsee the rules changing. If the "Healthcare Entitlement (or is that Reform) Bill" passes, it will not change these rules, it will just change who is paying for healthcare.

You can cut overall costs by having lower volumes of people being accepted for treatment, you can cut costs by lowering quality levels down, or you can keep quality and speed but pay through the nose for it.

If more people go to a system that pays at medicare rates, you will see some doctors not accepting that system, you will see others lowering quality down so that they have less costs. If it costs them $500 to do a procedure (not I said COST, not what they bill it as) and they get paid $250 from the insurance company (be it a government ins co or a private one), the difference has to come from somewhere or they will have to shut down.

I would suspect that at this time, doctors who take medicare patients make up for the difference in their costs and what they get paid by charging others more. In effect, they are subsidizing medicare at the cost of everyone else.

Back to lurking...

Aaron Z

You just can't get away from the fundemental fact that other developed economies typically spend half what we do, provide universal coverage and have equal or better outcomes.

This is not some big mystery boys....

On the cost side these systems typically have not-for-profit insurance administration, lower cost providers, employ systems to track patient care and they use comparative effectiveness research to guide patient treatment.

And while I'm at it ...the VHA...a completely government controlled, government run healthcare system, by most independent measures, has provided better care at lower cost than private institutions for at least the past decade. Look it up.

This is a political problem for the US. It has very little to do with what works.
In the mean time we're going broke.

 

[MikePA]

In the mean time we're going broke.

Turning what was an annual deficit in 2006/2007 into a monthly deficit now says we are broke and it's got nothing to do with healthcare.

 

[Loren49]

MikePA- The "annual to monthly" was is a new sound byte -what does it mean. Here is a resource that analyses the causes of the deficit. Was there a reason we went from surplus to deficit under Bush (9/11 and wars and tax breaks for the rich) Has there been a little breakdown in our economy that has required extra government spending?(remember the Bush Administration )

A Few Facts:
Time for some reality checks.

Myth. Our national debt doubled in the last eight years.

Fact. Nope, no matter how you measure it. In fact, if adjusted for inflation, real economic growth and population growth, it didn't budge at all.

Here are the national debt figures in 2000 (President Clinton's last full year) and as currently estimated for 2008 (President Bush's last full year), as provided by our government.


2000 2008 % Increase

Total Debt (dollars) $5,628.7B $9,654.4B 72%

Held by Public ($) $3,409.8B $5,428.6B 59%

Total Debt (%GDP) 58.0% 67.5% 16%

Held by Public (%GDP) 35.1% 37.9% 8%

American Thinker: Who Are the Big Spenders?
I believe that President Obama addressed that claim (yearly to monthly deficit)at a town hall meeting (or was it when he took questions from the other party) It was the broadcast that Fox News covered for a little while but went to regular programing when the President continued to look too good. (CNN and MSNBC covered the complete exchange) This was a grilling by the minority party. Seems like it would be part of a "fair and balanced" report.


FallbrockFarmer: I don't believe there is evidence to support you gas price - healthcare connection. The best way to encourage conscientious use of gasoline (and other fuels) is to price them at there true cost and if you want to encourage conservation then tack on a few taxes. (for needed infrastructure so we pay the costs of transportation up front) The US pricing system hides much of the fuel costs in fed taxes and deficits. If our costs at the pump where closer to the real cost we would have much more energy efficient homes, cars, and businesses. This does not mean lower standard of living. You only pay for improvements in energy efficiency once and enjoy the reduced fuels needs for a long time. I believe that a Government that was not pressured by energy lobbyists would take care of this.
National energy pricing is not directly related to health care policy. From the research I have done there is no country where the whole cost of healthcare is covered by a public plan. There is a private insurance and out of pocket portion. I referenced the a good site to show this earlier.

I know some feel that the World Health Organization doesn't matter but here is their analyses of or system
Rank Country

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 ******
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei


We can do better,
Loren

 

[20 20]

C'mon
You are totally overlooking the basic premise, Socialized Medicine(canada) vs US payer based system.

We have folks leaving this country for medical all the time. I even thought of it for my back just could not afford it. So I had to take what was offered HERE at the time

 

[MikePA]

Talk about a myth, 'tax break for the rich' is nothing but a rank, class warfare, socialist slogan meant to rile up the proletariot who think if a rich person's taxes go up that puts money in their pocket. With the latest budget, everyone will be paying more and getting nothing in return. Governments get money from only 3 sources; Print it, borrow it or take it from the private sector. Want more revenue, cut tax rates, works every time (60s and 80s) it's tried. But then, raising revenue isn't the goal, it's control.

 

[20 20]

Little different subject. 2 weeks ago on a Thursday I had an MRI for a herniated disk. The following Tuesday I had an appointment with a well respected neurosurgeon. Yesterday I had the surgery. Hospital facilities were wonderful, staff was excellent (and all the RN's were cute). This was a Catholic hospital. How would that work out in countries with socialized medicine?

I can tell you horror stories from my back surgery that I paid out the A--- for. Had to blow my retirement and any thing else I could get a hold of. The doc was great EVERYTHING else sucked. One good or one bad story doesn't make or break the conversation?

 

[20 20]

A little different spin this morning. WHAT ABOUT AIG They're going to give a 100million in bonus when they still how 124 billion{blows the mind} Maybe they should be in charge of medical, they seem to know how to screw the majority over

 

[kidr]

fannie mae and freddie mac are giving bonuses too. aint they Big Government?

 

[Chuck52]

Yes it is rationing, By price.
The only fair way to apportion "scarce resources, with alternative uses"
And if you are referring to VA coverage as "socialized" I will disagree with you. A number of people who served in Viet Nam with me and others wars, have left body parts and more in sort of a "pay in forward" plan

I don't see VA coverage as "socialized", but then I don't see medicare, which I pre-pay for, as "socialized" either. My father, older brother and son all served in the military. They earned their VA coverage. I figure by being good and productive citizens of this country we all earn some benefits. I'm willing to pay what they cost, we're just discussing who I pay. Right now I pay an outfit called Coventry to pay my medical expenses. They get to decide what I pay and what I get. They do not provide that service for my benefit; they provide that service to make money, which I do not object to. In general, I don't object to paying for services I need, or might need. I'm not fond of over paying for such things. The health insurance industry is one of the most profitable parts of this miserable economy. I figure I am over paying. Competition might bring down costs, but my employer does a pretty fair job of shopping for deals now, and my costs keep going up. I worry that competition among the health insurers might be like the competition among the gas companies. There are several different gas companies represented in this town. The cost of a gallon of regular is the same, to the penny, at most of them....I think I can get $0.05 off if I buy both groceries and gas at HyVee! And, no, I am not suggesting that the oil companies should be nationalized. I like the general idea of a free market economy. We don't have one, but it is one of those feel good ideas. I see health care as a special kind of commodity, which should be and is regulated to a large extent already. Apparently you see regulation by price as the best way to apportion all "scarce resources". Meet me in a sealed room, with a limited oxygen supply, and bring your wallet.

Chuck

 

[Chuck52]

Just had a great thought! One recurring theme I've seen is that every citizen should perform some kind of service early in life. Some suggest everyone should serve in the military; others point out that not all are suitable candidates for the military and might actually degrade our military, but that alternative service should be performed. Then we would all qualify for VHA!

Chuck

 

[Loren49]

I believe in the "free market" principle for businesses that are relatively easy to enter. This was almost everything 200 years ago. It was clear by the early 1900s that many companies (trusts) controlled the market alone or in collusion with other major players. When what they control are essential services the free market system has serious problems. What is keeping companies from fixing prices, etc. - governmental regulation. What would you suggest? What if the company who controls the electric distribution system in your area doubled there charge in a year. Who would you turn to?

Mike PA - no need to argue but I feel that the "trickle down" theory only works for what happens when we feed the donkey all the good grain and the rest of us share what trickles to the ground. Your theory and my theory are debatable but I don't believe that we'll come to a consensus. I believe that facts show that the distribution of wealth in this country was significantly accelerated by the recent tax policy. Whether that is a good or bad thing is debatable.

Loren

 

[dave1949]

Well Gee,
America.
I really find it interesting that you use the Phrase "Glorious places of Learning" Ask Prokop is they were "Glorious places of Learning"And if they enjoyed "freedom" relative or not.
And yes, it will take years if not decades of rebuilding from the nightmare that is Socialism.
What we need in this country are more "czars" not answerable to anyone other then the president, and who are fond of Mao.
Shameless, I think not, what I would is say is that I am proud, to be an American. You?

Good Morning,

Did you note I said 'used to be glorious places of learning'. I am sure Prokop knows the history of his native country before the **** invasion and pre-communism (1948-1989). What is now the Czech Rep. has a very turbulent history going back to the beginning of the second millenium.

Still, the capital cities of Central Europe such as Prague were historically great cultural centers. They may return to their former status.

From wikipedia:
Situated on the Vltava River in central Bohemia, Prague has been the political, cultural and economic centre of the Czech state for more than 1100 years. For many decades during the Gothic and Renaissance eras, Prague was the permanent seat of two Holy Roman Emperors and thus was also the capital of the Holy Roman Empire.

Also proud to be an American, eventhough millions of my countrymen think Budweiser is actually beer I am obligated to defend their rights to drink it.

It is disengenuous however, to compare the healthcare of a late-stage communist country to anything we are discussing. I know you like the word 'socialism', but perhaps I should stick to 'universal' healthcare to make the distinction, semantically at least. There are many socialized aspects of how we provide and pay for US healthcare already. We do have, and have had for many years, publically supported/funded universities that provide doctor and nurse training. Is that socialized medicine?
Dave.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

A little different spin this morning. WHAT ABOUT AIG They're going to give a 100million in bonus when they still how 124 billion{blows the mind} Maybe they should be in charge of medical, they seem to know how to screw the majority over

Yes I agree they should be in charge of our medical!
I told a friend of mine who plays around in penny stocks about two years ago, if you want to make some money, watch AIG. He told me I was nuts, He was laughing at me when it went down to around .35. I told him watch what happens, While Obama was telling them they it was only
him that stood between them and the lynch mobs.
Funny thing, the price of AIG went up about 5 fold in about a week. 500% profit, would you like that?
What was the secret that I knew that AIG would NEVER go belly up. I'll let you in on it. Take a WAG as to which insurance company insures congressional pensions.
Don't look behind the curtain my friend, just join the lynch mob that our great leader keeps stiring up.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

You just can't get away from the fundemental fact that other developed economies typically spend half what we do, provide universal coverage and have equal or better outcomes.

This is not some big mystery boys....

On the cost side these systems typically have not-for-profit insurance administration, lower cost providers, employ systems to track patient care and they use comparative effectiveness research to guide patient treatment.

And while I'm at it ...the VHA...a completely government controlled, government run healthcare system, by most independent measures, has provided better care at lower cost than private institutions for at least the past decade. Look it up.

This is a political problem for the US. It has very little to do with what works.
In the mean time we're going broke.

Firstly, I believe your talking about the VA NOT the VHA.
And yes it is a well run entity, at least here in San Diego, not so in some other parts of the country.
I don't think the comparison, between a health care entity, such as the VA, which was created to REWARD veterans who have served there country, and a system of
government largess which is at odds with our constitution(IMHO).
And if we are going broke, Does it have anything to do with the fact that we are now running TRILLION dollar deficits? And now we want to add another entitlement program? Sounds like a plan.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

MikePA- The "annual to monthly" was is a new sound byte -what does it mean. Here is a resource that analyses the causes of the deficit. Was there a reason we went from surplus to deficit under Bush (9/11 and wars and tax breaks for the rich) Has there been a little breakdown in our economy that has required extra government spending?(remember the Bush Administration )

A Few Facts:
Time for some reality checks.

Myth. Our national debt doubled in the last eight years.

Fact. Nope, no matter how you measure it. In fact, if adjusted for inflation, real economic growth and population growth, it didn't budge at all.

Here are the national debt figures in 2000 (President Clinton's last full year) and as currently estimated for 2008 (President Bush's last full year), as provided by our government.


2000 2008 % Increase

Total Debt (dollars) $5,628.7B $9,654.4B 72%

Held by Public ($) $3,409.8B $5,428.6B 59%

Total Debt (%GDP) 58.0% 67.5% 16%

Held by Public (%GDP) 35.1% 37.9% 8%

American Thinker: Who Are the Big Spenders?
I believe that President Obama addressed that claim (yearly to monthly deficit)at a town hall meeting (or was it when he took questions from the other party) It was the broadcast that Fox News covered for a little while but went to regular programing when the President continued to look too good. (CNN and MSNBC covered the complete exchange) This was a grilling by the minority party. Seems like it would be part of a "fair and balanced" report.


FallbrockFarmer: I don't believe there is evidence to support you gas price - healthcare connection. The best way to encourage conscientious use of gasoline (and other fuels) is to price them at there true cost and if you want to encourage conservation then tack on a few taxes. (for needed infrastructure so we pay the costs of transportation up front) The US pricing system hides much of the fuel costs in fed taxes and deficits. If our costs at the pump where closer to the real cost we would have much more energy efficient homes, cars, and businesses. This does not mean lower standard of living. You only pay for improvements in energy efficiency once and enjoy the reduced fuels needs for a long time. I believe that a Government that was not pressured by energy lobbyists would take care of this.
National energy pricing is not directly related to health care policy. From the research I have done there is no country where the whole cost of healthcare is covered by a public plan. There is a private insurance and out of pocket portion. I referenced the a good site to show this earlier.

I know some feel that the World Health Organization doesn't matter but here is their analyses of or system
Rank Country

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 ******
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei


We can do better,
Loren

Good Morning,
Along with hockey sticks, your chart leaves out some very relevant data, How about posting the deficit run up by the current administration?
Please explain to me the phrase "the real cost of gasoline"
I'm pretty sure that I pay "the real cost of gasoline" when I go to the pump(OK ,I use diesel, but that's another story)And the other phrase "conscientious use" of gas.
Does that mean I have to go to confession after I take the family out for a Sunday drive?
And I think I have found an exception to your research that didn't reveal a country that covered 100% of health care costs..........
CUBA. Hey ,I'm on the next boat. WOOHOO FREE HEALTH CARE!!!!!!!

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

Good Morning,

Did you note I said 'used to be glorious places of learning'. I am sure Prokop knows the history of his native country before the **** invasion and pre-communism (1948-1989). What is now the Czech Rep. has a very turbulent history going back to the beginning of the second millenium.

Still, the capital cities of Central Europe such as Prague were historically great cultural centers. They may return to their former status.

From wikipedia:
Situated on the Vltava River in central Bohemia, Prague has been the political, cultural and economic centre of the Czech state for more than 1100 years. For many decades during the Gothic and Renaissance eras, Prague was the permanent seat of two Holy Roman Emperors and thus was also the capital of the Holy Roman Empire.

Also proud to be an American, eventhough millions of my countrymen think Budweiser is actually beer I am obligated to defend their rights to drink it.

It is disengenuous however, to compare the healthcare of a late-stage communist country to anything we are discussing. I know you like the word 'socialism', but perhaps I should stick to 'universal' healthcare to make the distinction, semantically at least. There are many socialized aspects of how we provide and pay for US healthcare already. We do have, and have had for many years, publically supported/funded universities that provide doctor and nurse training. Is that socialized medicine?
Dave.

Yes Praha is a great city,(If you go definitely, try Budvar, not the export stuff,) And if you want too see a city that has embraced capitalism in a big way, I can't think of a better example, There are brand new western style shopping centers springing up, a renewed sense of hope(Has that word been co-opted by certain US Politicians?) Ask the people that lived under communisim
if the socialized health care that they had is one that they want to return to.
And please, calling socialized medicine universal health care is another of the political tricks make the bad medicine go down easier(Did I just make a pun?)
You may think it "disingenuous" of me to compare a soviet system of health care to "what is being proposed"
You are correct, for now. What about in fifty years from now,and you and I are not around any more to contrast and compare about what was and what is.
I will give you only one example to prove my point.
In 1913 when the income tax was instituted, only a few millionaires paid any tax, and the form was a single page. Do I have to say any more?
And yes, I do feel that it is a national shame that anything
coming out of a certain brewery in St. Louis is actually called beer.

 

[dave1949]

I will give you only one example to prove my point.
In 1913 when the income tax was instituted, only a few millionaires paid any tax, and the form was a single page. Do I have to say any more?
And yes, I do feel that it is a national shame that anything
coming out of a certain brewery in St. Louis is actually called beer.

Don't mention taxes this time of year.

That brewery may be in St. Louis, but it's not even 100% American anymore They do have the nicest horses in the beer world, you must admit.

The History Channel did a segment on beer. I believe Budweiser began substituting rice for wheat and barley at the time of WWII rationing, and have continued with rice or a rice blend since.

Some German brewing history:
Reinheitsgebot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dave.