Gotta have a four wheel drive...NOT!!!

Mosey · Sep 9, 2002

The commercials on TV are a big part of the problem. They show 4x4 vehicles being driven at high speed in snow and other low traction conditions. I lived in Colorado for 5 years and when I got on one of those ledge roads up in the mountains I took it slow, especially when going down hill! But, commercials are aimed at a certain mentality that is far below mine.

I’ve also heard all kinds of stories before about how someone in a 2 wheel drive vehicle would go out in the boonies and keep up with the 4x4’s and pull them out when they get stuck. That’s a lot of BS! The reason the 4x4’s get stuck is because the people are out to have fun and see where they can go so they go into the mudholes instead of around them. A 4x4 can also get through places without having to charge ahead at full speed. Yes, a 2 wheel drive will get through some pretty rough places if you hit it fast enough. Not safe though and pretty hard on the vehicle. No 2 wheel drive vehicle can keep up with my Jeep or my Suburban. I’ve seen people try and I’ve seen plenty of 2 wheel drive vehicles stuck in places they don’t belong. I’ve also seen some the “all wheel drive” vehicles stuck where they don’t belong. If it doesn’t have a transfer case to provide traction to both axles and at least one locking type differential (my Suburban has a rear locker and my Jeep has lockers in both ends), along with some ground clearance, then it’s not worth it’s weight in salt in my opinion.

Hazmat – Can you explain what you mean by “traction control?” I agree that without good tires a 4x4 won’t stop any better than a 2 wheel drive. I disagree that a 2 wheel drive is “sufficient for all ON ROAD (as in paved) conditions, save blizzard accumulations of snow”. They don’t scrape or salt the roads in my area very often (which is good, salt is what causes vehicles to rust!). So, just few inches of snow packs down to slick ice in no time and a 2 wheel drive, front or rear, will just spin out, even if they have a rear locker. Front wheel drive is actually worse on steep uphill situations because the weight shifts to the rear. It’s not uncommon to sit and watch someone try to make it up a paved icy hill and fail, then drive right on around them in our Suburban. I agree that an unloaded 2 wheel drive pickup is awful on a slippery road! But, about 600lbs of weight in the back makes a big difference.

As far as tractors go, there are hills on my property that I can not get up in 2 wheel drive if it’s wet or snow covered. I could lock the rears, but then I can’t turn. Getting the 4WD on my tractor was one of the smartest things I’ve done!

hazmat · Sep 9, 2002

Hazmat – Can you explain what you mean by “traction control?” 

What I mean is the black box computer that takes inputs from the ABS sensors and brakes the spinning wheel as well as reducing the power of the engine (usually by retarding the ignition).

The net result is similar to if you had a "locked" differential, except that only the wheel with traction is getting power, not both. Actaully, in theory, I think it is a little better, as it automatically lightens your lead foot. I haven't driven a truck with a locking differential.

With this system & snow tires, I have not met a ROAD I couldn't safely drive.

I just wish it was available on the truck, Mine hasn't met a gas station it didn't like.

Now as far as SUV's go. The Mercedes ML has this traction control & 4wd. Just point and shoot.

Wingnut · Sep 9, 2002

WARNING ... This post is NOT intended to hurt anyone's feelings! 

One of the biggest "problems" I have with 4x4's ... or any 4wd or AWD vehicle is that people assume it solves all kinds of problems.

If you live in snow country, get yourself some dedicated snow tires. 4wd doesn't help you STOP. 
Right ... and it also doesn't help you go ... on ice. It doesn't help you go thru snow deeper than your clearance.

 ...save blizzard accumulations of snow. 
In which case, only a snow plow and speed halps ... 2wd, 4wd, 6wd ... hah! Vehicles made for this condition (yeah, I had one in the north) have skis and tracks (mine was called a "Weasel").

 Observation #3. Well Said!

A 2wd pickup with an empty bed .... is an accident waiting to bite you.

I don't dislike 4wd ... what I dislike is the fact that Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac, et al cannot keep up to the demand for their 4WD SUV's.

pete

PitbullMidwest · Sep 9, 2002

The commercials on TV are a big part of the problem

Problem? There's a problem?/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I own a '79 GMC 4x4 with 200,000+ miles on it, beleive me, it's not a macho image kinda thing. I get around fine in the snow in my Taurus until we get more than a few inches, then I use the truck.The only way the Taurus makes it up my road is to get out and spread sand, If I use my 4x4 I can stay nice and warm and just drive on up./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

What's the point of this conversation anyway?

IndianaPaul · Sep 9, 2002

I live in southwest Indiana and have owned both 2wd and 4wd vehicles. When I moved down here a few years back with my 2wd, I ran into numerous situations which had I been in a 4wd vehicle, would not have been a big deal. Down here it isn;t so much the snow (maybe 4-8 inches in a 'big' winter), but rather it is the county roads. About 70% of these roads are unpaved nor are they chipped and sealed.....they are gravel and dirt. In fact, a number of the roads are old haul roads used by coal mines in the past (the area has been actively surface mined for coal during last 120 years). In the summer, they are fine; however, when you add water from rain, things get dicey as much of it is clay based and too slick to get through in 2wd. Lets not forget to add in the fact that majority of states rivers come together in my county and it has a goodly portion of low ground. 4wd drive is a must for getting arounf about 5 months of the year. Besides, I feel much more comfortable knowing when my kids and wife are on the road they can get through.

Of course, I've not even got into the chores int he fields, etc...

Is it an ego or image thing......nha, it is a safety and practicality thing......but I do look good riding it the Suburban too.

IndianaPaul

Mosey · Sep 9, 2002

Hazmat – “What I mean is the black box computer that takes inputs from the ABS sensors and brakes the spinning wheel as well as reducing the power of the engine (usually by retarding the ignition).”

Sounds pretty neat. This would be good for street use. Personally though, I would still prefer to have the locker for those times when I just have to scratch and claw may way out of something!

Wingnut – “and it also doesn't help you go ... on ice. It doesn't help you go thru snow deeper than your clearance.”

I really don’t agree on this one. 4 wheel drive DOES help you go on ice. Any wheel that’s just rolling is providing resistance and making the other wheels have to do more work. If all the wheels are turning under their own power providing even a little bit of traction the vehicle will have a much better chance of moving. As for deep snow, I agree to a point. But, a big heavy vehicle can at times plow it’s way through snow that is way over the axles. And the more wheels you have providing traction, instead of just rolling, the better your chances of getting through. It depends on the snow too. I’ve been stuck in 6” of crusty snow, which is not enough to cause my axles to bottom out. It was that hard crusty stuff - I broke through and then couldn’t get back on top and couldn’t get any traction on the wet slush underneath. That kind of stuff is rare though, and this was not on the street (it was in a field in Michigan) when it happened. The winch came in handy that day! I’ve also driven through over 2’ to 3’ of other more “fluffy” snow.

PitBullMidwest – The problem is that people go out and buy a 4x4 based on what they see on a TV commercial and think they should drive it like they saw on the commercial, which is reckless! Another problem is they get suckered in to buying something they don’t need and can’t really afford just because it looked neat on the commercial. The end result is that 4x4’s and the owners of them who really do know how to use one and have legitimate uses for them get a bad rap. Like I said earlier, I don’t like to get stuck! I’m like you, I prefer to stay nice and warm and just drive!

I think the point of this thread is that the person who started it was tired of people teasing him for being one of the few where he works who doesn’t drive a 4x4, so he decided to take it out on us folks who do like to have a 4x4 and do use them for what they’re good at doing- which is to get from one place to another without getting stuck!

Wingnut · Sep 9, 2002

WARNING - this posting is NOT intended to hurt your feelings!

I guess maybe we have a difference of opinion of exactly what "clearance" means. My definition is based on my experience ... when the snow - especially packed snow - is higher than the bottom of my vehicle ... I will get stuck. This includes the 4 wheel drives I operated in the arctic.

While ABS brakes may help in a stopping situation on ice (to the degree that you won't skid) ... I've seen nothing other than studs that will help you accelerate on ice. While 4wd will split the power to all the wheels ... they do very little at increasing the friction of ice .... you get 4 wheels spinning instewad of 2. Of course, again, this is just my opinion based on my experience from a lifetime in northern Alberta and the arctic. While I'll admit my ice bike racing career wasn't long ... /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif ... it was fun (hey, how else do you get to ride a bike at 40 below?)

I will stipulate there is a world of difference in packed snow and ice. I've driven on both .... I'll take the packed snow in a heartbeat!

Fireman_dcb · Sep 9, 2002

Glad to hear that you don't have a need for 4wd.... but at 2:00 am with 8" or more inches of snow on the ground and more falling - then my fire department pager going off for a "CPR in progress" call I'm sure that even you would appreciated the difference that 4wd can make in getting to the scene a little quicker.

Doug

RanchMan · Sep 9, 2002

Wingnut -

Unfortunately a typically long response on my part - please bear with me...

spend more time saying "you misunderstood me" than we do trying to make a point.

I'll agree with that! In actuality, I think you misread my intent in response to you as well. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

I'm sorry that you took my post personally. I would've hoped you'd realize I was speaking for myself and my experiences - not casting aspersions upon those that actually use 4wd vehicles.

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Well, there's a few things to comment on here.

First, I'm a bit surprised at your "defensive" retort, after all, you were the one who said:

so, never being afraid to toss my hat into the ring ... here I am.
and
OK, guys, fire away ... /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

Seems kindof strange that you "ask for it" and then say "Whoa! Why'd you get upset?" Seems like an oxymoron to me. Oh well, that really is just a sidebar point of confusion on my part.

...and not stereotype everyone as idiots who don't know the value of a dollar or irresponsible people who try and get themselves in to trouble. I think it's an insult at best, intellectually dishonest at worst. 

More importantly than my last point, I'm sorry you thought this comment was expressly directed at you. In actuality my major "beef" (and subsequent excerpt you cited) were really directed toward the orignal poster. In your original message did say "90%" and "They have their place " after all, which basically states some acknowledgement of 4wd's benefits.

Of course you did make the comments like the one questioning if 4wd offers any real off-road benefit and about how one tranny is enough to keep repaired which I think is frivious, so I don't think you are completely objective as you seem to profess. (Constant repair on 4wd vehicles is an "old wives tale" as I've had multiple 4wd vehicles with multiple 100K miles and have yet to encounter a transfer case or front end failure of any type. Sure, if you abuse the heck out of anything you can break it, and yes, the occasional "lemon" or defect will show up (as with ANY vehicle), but the whole "maintenance" aspect brought up by those who don't own/operate 4wd vehicles is bogus in my view - after all, how would they know? /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif)

Your latest message helps clarify that even though you have a "live and let live" perspective with regards to purchase of a 4wd vehicle and you don't "have a problem" with some folks owning/operating 4wd (although again, it "isn't for you"), you still have a lack of respect for the "90%" of folks who buy them for what you see as bogus reasons. (For the record, I'm not necessarily saying I disagree with this position, although my definitions of "bogus reasons" may very well differ from yours.)

I honestly don't have a problem with folks (such as yourself) who choose to own a 2wd instead of a 4wd vehicle. Yes, I fully acknowledge 2wd does have some benefits over 4wd, although, for me at least, I think those benefits are "over rated." (of course 2-3 MPG isn't a "big deal" to me, where as it may be for others.) What I have a problem with (and I think this has been shown to be pretty consistent throughout my historical responses on TBN) is when an individual posts something only to instegate argument and not to start legitimite discussion (regardless of whether they spout a bunch of stuff about how they are "entitled to their opinion" or not.)

I think that aspect was proven for this thread since the original poster started a subsequent thread on 4wd where he goes on to say that he used to have a Jeep, went off road all the time in the past, etc. (this other thread which has seemed to "disappear" - not sure where it went - it was on TBN last night right below this thread on the listing in OT&JFF forum.../w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif)

In other words, this individual has obvious first hand knowledge of 4wd benefits (if he didn't believe in any, why did he not go "off road" with his Pontiac or such?) and this thread was started (as I suspected) not to start intelligent discussion but simply because someone wanted to see fireworks. I just have a big problem when someone lets a mouse loose in the elephant cage for "fun." (Whether it be saying that XYZ tractor is a terrible machine when they’ve never even seen that brand up close or saying the space program has absolutely no redeeming value/derived benefits. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif)

So, in this aspect at least, yes, I had "my nose bent out of shape," but my comment on "intellectual dishonesty" was really focused on the original poster.

If you want to find a reason to feel put upon, be my guest ... but I'm surprised you took offence 

I don't go "looking" to feel "put upon" as you seem to believe. Again, the problem I have is when others make disparaging comments for friviouls reasons or "fun" to get a "rise" out of others. Again, as I said in my paragraphs above, I felt (and believe this has been proven) to be the case with the original poster.

I couldn't care less if every "other" vehicle on the road were a 4wd ... I only worry about myself.

Yup. I agree. I don't buy anything to impress anyone else, but buy it for my use. I'll agree that not everyone is as "practical" as me though.

The fact that I think most people that have 4wd vehicles don't need them doesn't mean I believe there is no place for them ... heck, I also believe that the vast majority of people who have trucks don't need them and have driven up the cost (dramatically) for those of us who do need them. They used to be the cheapest vehicles to buy before they became "popular". 

Needs are very few. As pointed out an another post, if you want to get serious, there are very few things ANYONE "Needs" in life. Food, water, & shelter are about it. That means everything else is a "want" - yes, certain things may make life "easier" or "more enjoyable," but "need?" (BTW, I never stated I "need" 4wd - I did state ... for me at least... yes, 4wd is a very practical, useful feature)

To your other points:
Would you say that the vast majority of 4wd vehicles, and especially SUVs, are in use on farms/ranches like yours? Or in the cities/towns by soccer moms, prestige seekers and the like? I think the statistics would show farmers are in the minority ... a very small minority.

Since there are only about 52,000 farms/ranches in Texas, I think that's a fair statement that "farmers" are in the "minority." Again, I think if you look back at my post, I never said that a "majority" of people "need" or even "use" 4wd. What I said was that to stereotype everyone who does have a 4wd as an irresponsible egomaniac who wastes money is unfair. You "connected those dots" - not me.

I guess I'll preface all my postings with "warning - I am NOT trying to hurt your feelings" from now on.

/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif Now THAT'S funny!!! Especially since if you go back and read all my other contentious posts on TBN, you'll see that I'm the one that usually that cites logic and facts and that while being civil to one another, "feeling" is not a valid argumentative point! "Hurt" my feelings? Don't worry, there may be a bit of considerable aggravation I've directed at individuals at times, but I've yet to shed a single tear due to a post from a "mean-ee" on TBN. Maybe I just lack that whole "sensitive" side... I hear they have classes to "help" with that now days. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

looch · Sep 9, 2002

I use my 4WD.

I park my truck in a farmer's frozen field when I go deer hunting. By 2pm, all the snow/frost has melted - no way you're getting out of there until it freezes again.

Also, driving on logging roads that have a "washboard" surface I find I can maintain control more easily with the 4WD engaged.

Someone mentioned 4WD not having an advantage to slowing down on snow or ice. I beg to differ. My experience is with a manual transmission - you can use compression to slow down more succesfully on ice with a 4WD rather than brakes alone.

I doubt I would ever own another pick-up (had a 2WD before) without 4WD - just suits my needs. I can also comprehend why some wouldn't buy one and why a 2WD suits their needs perfectly. I think that's why they're offered with both options.