Governor/speed control

   / Governor/speed control #11  
The governer on most diesel engines that I have seen are there to protect the engine from reving over a certain RPM.
It is up to the operater to control the rest !
 
   / Governor/speed control #12  
Patrick,

I see where you're coming from. I don't think modern CUTs have a true governor on them. At least not one like my old Allis Chalmers dozer that really pours on the fuel when the beast is under load. And not one like lawn mowers use either. In fact, it's unusual to see a true rpm controlling (as opposed to max speed only) governor on a machine unless it's set up for mostly constant speed operation.

One reason may be the lag time in governor operation that occurs when a load is quickly applied to the engine. This can lead to a cycle of over compensation by the governor with the engine revving and falling uncontrollably. This is always a problem with a system that depends upon feedback to control it's operation. It would be interesting to see if the hydro trans would make this less of a problem, since the load can be applied more gradually then with a gear trans. The speed of modern electronic control units might also make this a non issue.

I can see where it would be a useful thing, although probably more so on a HST trans. I don't think I would want one on my GST, too easy to regulate rpm with foot throttle. If I want any kind of constant rpm, I just set the hand lever throttle next to the driver's seat.

As far as the design of the system, I can see where a cruise control unit could be adapted. The sensors these things use produce an analog a/c signal. As long as you can mount the magnet to something rotating in proporation to engine rpm, and attach a bracket nearby to hold the sensor, you're good to go. The normal engine rpm of 1000-3000 rpm is where they're designed to operate, so the control unit won't care.
You would just adjust the rpm manually to whatever you wanted, and hit the set button on the cruise. I don't see the need for a potentiometer. Rigging the cruise control cable to the throttle shouldn't be too hard, the universal type cruise control kits include a bunch of different brackets and adaptors.

Let us know if you pursue it further, it sounds like an interesting undertaking. And you can pick up a cruise control kit pretty cheaply, so not much downside if it doesn't work.

HTH,
Dave
 
   / Governor/speed control #13  
   / Governor/speed control #14  
<font color=blue>GST, too easy to regulate rpm with foot throttle.

<font color=black>It is true that on my 1920, if I hit a heavy spot I can use my foot throttle to pour the fuel on and keep rpm up.. but on the old 8N.. there is no foot throttle.. so I'm thankfull that its governor works the way it does ( pours the gas on as engine loads down ).

On a gear machine you can use a ratio from the tach to measure ground speed ( my 8N tach lists ground speed and rpm ( per gear ).

A HST would as you point out probably need a more conventional sensor setup etc, to measure ground speed... or perhaps a sensor in the final drive maybee something off of the ring gear?

Soundguy
 
   / Governor/speed control
  • Thread Starter
#15  
Thanks to everyone who commented with ideas, data points, and URLs.

Dave, The reason I thought I might need a potentiometer was to scale down the speed signal if I attach the sensor to something that rotates faster than an automotive drive shaft. I have used sensor coils before that "read" the teeth on the flywheel and would give a number of pulses equal to the engine rpm times the number of teeth on the ring gear. A bit faster than getting one or even two per rev on a driveshaft. I should't have too much difficulty doing the simple analog signal conditioning, whatever it is. Buried in the archives of my checkered past is several years experience in electronic engineering.

The reason governors oscillate (over rev/under rev/over rev...repeat and if you are lucky damp out) is that loop gain (sensitivity) is important to making the unit respond to small changes in speed (small error conditions). Dampening helps control oscillation but too much and the system response is too slow.

WARNING!!! Brief Lecture follows: There are three possible conditions in a system like this (just like with car suspension's springs and shocks) 1. Over damping, 2. Under damping, and 3. Critical damping. With a car, when you push the bumper way down and turn lose it will, if critically damped, rise past its initial/rest position and then return to the rest position AND STOP. If it is under damped it will exhibit damped oscillations, i.e. it will swing up and down up and down with each swing smaller in amplitude until it comes to rest in its initial position. 3. If it is over damped it will return to ins initial position but no further. You can tell the guys driving on worn out shocks (under damped) they go bouncy bouncy every time their suspension is disturbed.

What has this to do with governors? When equilibrium is disturbed, load increases or decreases, the governor needs to change the throttle to compensate. There is a delay and the error in RPM grows a bit before the governor can respond and the engine can respond to the change in throttle (total system response) If the system is too sensitive (too much gain) and not damped enough it will respond real quick but will overshoot and oscillate a bit or a lot, depending on the situation), either in adding or reducing power.

If there is too little gain the governor under reacts to the need and either doesn't add enough or reduce enough depending on the situation. There is a delicate balancing act between gain and damping and it is difficult to get it just right over a wide dynamic range of conditions. Some cars use variable orifice technology in their shocks which lets the computer control damping.

Electronic controls can more easily be designed to prevent throttle induced RPM oscillation but there are limits to what can be easily done. When I drive through "rollercoaster" type road conditions, my truck's cruise is totally inadequate and gets way out of phase with reality. As speed builds up going downhill it retards the throttle and as I head up the next hill it has a lot more throttle movement to make to catch up and doesn't. Speed falls way off and it goes to max throttle as I head down the next hill, over speed and throttle reduction follows. Even a mediocre driver can do a lot better job because the human-in-the-loop "anticipates" the need to make a correction. An inexpensive autopilot I had once on a tiller steered sailboat would "lose it" so bad that you'd have to turn it off, straighten the boat out, and turn it back on (I did a little remedial engineering and it got way better).

Properly designed, an electronic governor will virtually never oscillate and it will still have a good response time (but you still have the engine's throttle response to deal with). It is nearly impossible to build a mechanical system that can come close to a good electronic system. I'm willing to settle for much less than perfection (I just want a bunch better than I have right now).

Hope this wasn't too boring. The last guy who asked me what time it was got a lecture on watch making.

Patrick
 
   / Governor/speed control #16  
Patrick:

It becomes obvious you must integrate a level sensor and lazer beam oncoming grade sensor into your speed control electonics package.

Egon
 
   / Governor/speed control #17  
Sounds like you've got a good handle on the oscillation problem Patrick. That is the one thing I would be concerned about when fitting a rpm governing mechanism to a machine that's subject to varying loads.

As you illustrated with the description of your truck on the hills, even modern electronic cruise control systems don't handle vaying loads very well.

If the load varies too frequently or by too much, by the time you dial in enough dampening to stop it from overshooting, you're not going to end up with much affect.

I remember Porsche having trouble when they first started fitting cruise control on their cars. The 5 spd models would invariably surge under cruise operation even on a flat highway. The automatics would not, so the HST should help.

The ratio between driveshaft rpm and engine rpm in high gear is usually close to 1:1 on most light vehicles, a little over with overdve, a little under for small high revving engines. I would think the control unit would be able to read the frequency within the normal 1000-3000 rpm range of your tractor.

There is no direct correlation between the rpm signal and where the criuse control cable moves to, the actuator just retracts it until the signal frequency increases, then backs off. So there's no need to worry what signal frequency the system was originally set up for, unless there's some frequency sensitive dampening process in the control unit I'm not aware of.

Magnet speed might be a concern, since the amplitude of sensor voltage is related to it. You'll need the combination of rpm and the diameter of the unit where the magnet is mounted to generate sufficent voltage for the pulses to be read by the control unit.

One other thought that comes to mind. You'll need to find a cruise control kit that uses an electric actuator, as opposed to the vacuum actuator that's usually supplied, since you don't have a source of vacuum. (unless you want to fit a vacuum pump to the engine also)

Take care, and keep us posted.
Dave
 
   / Governor/speed control
  • Thread Starter
#18  
Egon, That's LASER. And yes, due consideration for preanticipation rise times will be given to not only measured grade but topographic information with a GPS input will advise of grade changes that are obscurred by immediate terrain. The tricky bit was made easier through FOIA and access thereby achieved to TAR algorythms used in military strike aircraft.

The probabilistic calculations to predict rate of change of soil density and compaction using chaos theory as encoded through evolutionary programming was a temporary stumbling block but I had a few revelations this afternoon during a commercial break in a rerun of "Quigly Down Under" so now all that is left is to finance the R&D of prototype development. Please send your contribution to this effort for the advancement in the state of the art in Compact Tractor control theory application to the following numbered bank account on Grand Cayman: AF149477843268768366

Sorry, but this will probably not pass muster with either of our governments as a charitable donation/contribution and will likely threfore not be tax deductable. And remember this one last thought:" I would much prefer to owe it to you than to cheat you out of it!"

Patrick AKA Pat AKA "Hey You"
 
   / Governor/speed control #19  
Patrick:

Patrick, I was thinking more on the lines of a unit for highway use on trucks. The GPS inclusion is fine but it may be preferable not to make use of it in case of extreme sunspot activity which may render it useless.

Please use shorter words. My working life was spent in a four letter word environment and those long words means I'm always looking in the dictionary.

Egon
 
   / Governor/speed control #20  
Now that all of this 'lite reading material' is over.. lets get down to business /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif!

Soundguy
 

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