GPS and surveying

Highbeam · Sep 25, 2005

1800$ is cheap. I spent about 3000$ on my 15 acrea a few months ago. Most legal descriptions, especially those for large lots, are not given in meets and bounds. That is, they don't start out with a point of beginning and then describe the permimeter but instead the lot is described as the east half of the west half of the... section X township Y and range Z. Only the oddball lots are described the M&B way in their legals.

Now on your survey map you will find bearings and distances on all the lines. The distances are feet and hundredths of feet. The bearings as you described are just that. Remember back in cub scouts doing the orienteering? Start at a known point and figure out which way to go and head that way for whatever distance is required. That's the best you can do without a surveying instrument and a GPS unit is not the right tool.

Once you find the corners, flag them up real good and protect them.

BlueRidge · Sep 25, 2005

( Most legal descriptions, especially those for large lots, are not given in meets and bounds. That is, they don't start out with a point of beginning and then describe the permimeter but instead the lot is described as the east half of the west half of the... section X township Y and range Z. Only the oddball lots are described the M&B way in their legals. )

ALL legal descriptions are given in Meets & Bounds. What you've described is called Township & Range, and it is NEVER used for property descriptions.

( Every deed I've ever seen begins with the words, "Beginning at a point...." then proceeds to travel around the perimter of the property with a sequence of both directions and distances. )

No legal description is given in Meets & Bounds. Township & Range is what is ALWAYS used.

Okay, confused? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Township & Range is used in the western states, and Meets & Bounds is the system used in the east & south. So, which is used depends on where you are. Where the dividing line is, I don't recall at the moment. T&R is a Federal system, and was developed to accomodate the western expansion. Eastern & some southern states were already using Meets & Bounds, and stayed with that system. So, you're both right, and you're both wrong! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Here's a short blurb on the two:

http://www.outfitters.com/genealogy/land/metesbounds.html

As to the figures in the first post, here's the scoop:

Those are latitude & longitude expressed in degrees, minutes, & seconds. Most GPS units default to DMS decimal, or degrees, minutes, & seconds expressed in DECIMAL format. (We're not talking about datums here - that's another topic.) It's simple to convert from one to the other, and there are many sites online that will do it for you. Here's one:

http://www.directionsmag.com/latlong.php

Averaging the readings is a good way to get accurate fixes. Since the errors are (presumably) random, over time they average out. The longer, the better.

MikePA · Sep 25, 2005

Great info! Thanks!!

BlueRidge · Sep 25, 2005

BTW, Mike, most GPS units will let you tell them to display in either format. I can imagine the El Cheapos not having that option, but most offer the choice.

BlueRidge · Sep 25, 2005

Bleh. What's with this site? Edit your post and watch ALL the formatting go haywire! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Guys, it's time to upgrade to some decent forum software, like vBulletin.

BillG_in_TX · Sep 25, 2005

BlueRidge,

That's why I quit using the Quote function. I just pick a color and paste the quote inside the brackets. That doesn't get bolloxed up when you go back and edit.

DocHeb · Sep 25, 2005

Quotes do get messed up with editing. I just go back and erase the formatting commands around the quoted material, and substitute {quote} and {/quote} (while using brackets).

penokee · Sep 25, 2005

Code - when getting a copy of your deed from the Register of Deeds Office, also check if there's a Plat of your parcel on file. If not officially on file, some offices have a book of drawings, etc, thet have been done through the years by others then Registered Land Surveyors. Also check if their is a County Surveyor or any old records if they had one previously. The County Highway Dept. may have something. For what it's worth, Land Surveyors don't make up too many of the words they use - it's standard in the Profession. Land Surveying isn't Rocket Science, but it's much more complicated then just being able to walk in the woods. The math knowledege required is primarily trigonometry. When in the business, your Errors and Omissions Insurance premiums will probably run you around $3,500/year, your Total Station +$12,000, GPS Equipment, Computer, Office, Employee Salaries/Benefits, Vehicles and expect numerous law Suits where you sit in court for days not making a dime. (Now I remember why I gave it up /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
penokee /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Highbeam · Sep 25, 2005

"Total Station +$12,000"

Whoops, expect to pay more than $50,000 for the robotic total stations these days. Not cheap.

We use both meets+bounds as well as the township and range method in Washington. Meets and bounds when the parcel is of goofy shape. T&R when it is a square chunk that was sectioned off of a larger chunk. I do not think it is an east west thing.

The bearings are not lat/long figures. They are bearings and only give you an angle from north, south, east, or west. Not a location, not lat/long. The bearings and distances on the survey will be based on an assumed datum and referenced to a fixed point like a monument so that the survey is repeatable.

About the only way I've been able to use GPS for trying to find property corners is to use good old trig to calculate coordinates for each corner and then set up on two of the defined points of the survey to get a datum. Get the GPS coordinates and compare to the calculated survey coordinates and then translate everything to GPS datum. Then seek the coordinates in the field. Now you only need to deal with GPS shortcomings such as weather, tree cover, batteries, and accuracy. Grab a metal detector and keep an eye for clues like timberlines, fire roads, or old fence lines. Finding the old corners is very rewarding when done yourself but be warned that the corner may be an old tree, stone monument, axle, metal pipe, rebar with plastic cap, or an actual concrete & brass sectino corner. Those are the ones I've found but I've always set rebar and caps.

California · Sep 25, 2005

( T&R is a Federal system, and was developed to accomodate the western expansion. )

As you noted T&R is is a grid that was extended west as settlement progressed. The original Homestead Act provided for transferring individual parcels from the federal government to settlers, and the homestead deeds described these parcels in terms of Township and Range.

Long ago I made use of a remnant of the original Homestead Act. I filed a Mining Claim on federal land for gold panning in the Sierras. The region was shown as 'Unsurveyed' on the topo map so I described it as 'so many feet of x creek starting from the confluence with y creek' as allowed under the original Mining Claim rules. This is obviously not precise but is legally sufficient to avoid a subsequent claimant on the same land.

Later after accurate ground survey monuments and maps became available, I amended my description to approximately 'the western half of the northeast quarter of the southwest quarter section, Section x, Township y North, Range z East, MDB&M'. [MDB&M is Mount Diablo Base and Meridian].

That T&R description is more confusing to the layman but is clearly better at preventing overlapping parcels.