Grass carp and food chains

rmorgan · Aug 20, 2001

The recent coyote discussion has got me thinking about food chains, predators, native species vs. imports and the like. A lot of my "rural living" time right now is spent learning and attempting pond/lake management, and I've got a warning for pond owners about triploid grass carp (White Amur). These things do a great job cleaning the bottom of your pond. And then they clean it down to the nub and start yanking things out of the clay/mud, which makes the water cloudy; and then--I swear--they start COMING UP ON SHORE to get things you've planted around the margins or otherwise because they're so hungry. They are non-indiginous and fast growers, 10" to 24" in a year, and I've been through the hi-power pellet gun (Beeman; great machine) and the .22 in the last few days and am moving to the 12-gauge (an 870, by the way) to get rid of them. It's a shame to blow them apart because they are so good at what they do, but they are, I think, flat-out not compatible with good aquatic management. They seem to me to be the lake equivalent of DDT--the habitat influence is unpredictable and potentially extreme--and they grow to 65 lbs (amazing photo at http://archeryworld.com/bows/trophy/people/57.nmpl)

Maybe I'm wrong. Any other experiences with managing these beasts? Any ideas on non-firearm ways to catch them, since they are unbaitable and fast?

Rick

bgott · Aug 20, 2001

I've watched people catch mullet on hooks using hominy as bait. You might give it a try.

ShantyBranch · Aug 21, 2001

They are fun to "stalk" and catch with fly rod and small fly or bread ball. Very tough to catch. There are many fly fisherman who put them up there with bonefish, as far as challenging to catch. Very similar mouth and swimming habits, but even more of a challenge to catch.
You really have to sneak up on them!

Maybe you could invite some bow and arrow fisherman out to the pond. They would probably jump at the chance to get in some target practice.

Youare · Aug 21, 2001

It is intresting, last night while visiting friends who own a 22 acre pond the subject of grass carp and milfoil came up. They have discovered milfoil in their pond. Many of the lakes and ponds in New Hampshire are becoming fouled with milfoil. Our friends said that grass carp will eat milfoil but the State of New Hampshire will not allow them to be brought into the State. Are grass carp effective at combating milfoil, and do they affect the breeding weeds of other local fish?

rmorgan · Aug 21, 2001

Shanty and Brag--thanks for the information re. possibility of hooking them. I'm not much of a fly fisherman but have a friend who is, so maybe I'll bring him out for a tutorial. I thought about bow hunters also, and may call another friend who does that. Randy--Here's a link to a site that rates white amur as "moderately" effective against Eurasian Milfoil. http://home.texoma.net/~ghoenig/carp2.htm. The problem is that they are effective against everything else--I've seen it written that they are an "all or nothing" solution satisfactory only for those ponds or lakes in which zero bottom growth is acceptable. The habitat implications are obvious!

Rick

gmason · Aug 21, 2001

We built a 1ac pond 3 years ago and initially stocked it with bass and bluegill fingerlings. The pond management store where we got the fish said we could put 2-3 STERIL carp in our pond to help keep the grass and weeds out of the pond. They were about 4-5inches when we put them in the pond and are about 12 inches after 2 years. I've actually caught a few on a hook and bobber using a worm.

These are expensive fish at about $13 per fish. I hope I'll never have to take a .22 after them like I just did to a muskrat a few days ago. Talk about something that can tear-up a pond. In 2 days that RAT had knawed-down a dozen catails growning on the edge.
Evective pond management is critical to the long term health of the fish and other wildlife.

Can you throw a cast net over them and drag a few to shore??
But I guess if there not steril, you wouldn't want to take them to someone elses pond either.

gary

JohnS · Aug 21, 2001

A friend of mine has a small hatchery and he sells fish through most of the local county AG programs. He has been offering these fish for a number of years. In NY, they have to be sterile, and a permit is required for stocking. I believe the permit requires a no outlet clause, such that they can not escape. It may limit quantity of fish per acre, too. Over the years, he has relayed numerous 3rd party stories on grass carp. Mostly speaking of the enormous size and people dumping their lawn clippings into ponds for feed, and such. I will ask him if he has ever heard of them "coming a shore", to feed. At first glace, this seems like one of those "far out" things, but carp can survive with very low oxegen levels and we have all probably heard about the "infamous" walking catfish. Interesting.

JohnS

fishman · Aug 21, 2001

Rmorgan,

Grass carp are a good pond management tool if they are triploid or sterile. It allows the pond owner to control nuisance vegetation without resorting to chemicals. I work for TX inland fisheries, and our recommendation is usually to avoid doing either unless you have such a problem with weeds that you can't use your pond for the purposes you intended. Grass carp are relatively non-selective, and will consume most rooted submerged plants. Stocking rate is important. In TX, we recommend 7 per acre max, although other southern states recommend up to 25/acre.

We rarely hear complaints about the grass carp being TOO effective in private waters, but I'm sure it does happen.

BTW, I have eaten grass carp, and they can be very tasty.

fmorgan · Aug 21, 2001

Fishman--

I'm sure you are 100% correct. The 4-5 grass carp we have (in a 3/4 acre pond) are triploid, and so reproduction is not an issue; there just isn't enough forage for them, and so they have resorted to rooting into the bottom (and coming up on shore!) for food. I think the problem was that our local hatchery, which is extremely responsive, reputable and responsible, was just a tad overzealous in terms of recommending a few grass carp for a newly-dug pond which had some algae but no real growth of bottom weeds. Just goes to show how delicate the balances can be, I suppose. I've read elsewhere that they are good table fish, and expect to run my own test in the coming weeks!

ERNIEB · Aug 21, 2001

<font color=blue>I have eaten grass carp, and they can be very tasty</font color=blue>
When I was in Germany, I was stationed in Ansbach, the area around there is called Franconia, a part of Bavaria. They raise carp as a food fish, and it is often served during Fasching(sp?)
I've had that carp, but I'm sure it's a different variety. These grass carp....I don't know. They just don't look very good.
I admit I don't like the darn things. I like to fish for Bass, and carp remove good cover for bass fry.

Ernie

ERNIEB · Aug 21, 2001

I have heard of people fishing for them with small hooks and corn, hominy, and other stuff. Once I accidently snaged one while using a stick bait with 3 treble hooks. Felt like I was reeling in a rubber boot. IMO, a two man siene is the only way to go./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Eat one? Maybe....if I was really really hungry, and I couldn't soften up the rubber boot/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Ernie

Bird · Aug 21, 2001

Ernie, when I was a kid, we fished for carp using plain old whole wheat bread, slightly moistened, to make dough balls on the hooks, and we ate them all the time. The only thing wrong with them is lots of small bones. The big problem is that they can live in a sewer creek and I think that gave them a bad name. Anyway, I hadn't eaten one since I was a kid until a couple of years ago when I was crappie fishing and caught a nice sized carp on a crappie jig, so just to see what it was like, I filleted it and had it for supper and it was darned good, too./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif If they come out of clean water that I'd eat other fish from, I'll eat the carp, too.

Bird

rmorgan · Aug 21, 2001

John--

I couldn't imagine they would come up out of the water either. I initially thought that I had to have a snapping turtle in the pond, although I have a lot of fish and so thought it would be unlikely a snapper would go for greens plus I didn't have any half-eaten fish floating around. But then I actually saw the grass carp up about 4-6 inches on shore, and when I (carefully) asked my brother-in-law, a landscape architect with a lot of pond experience, about it, he said he had heard of the amur doing this in other ponds which had been stripped of bottom-growing plants. Also, there is no doubt that a big batch of elephant ears was decimated over a two-night period, and I couldn't imagine a snapper eating that much (I mean, probably about a dozen leaves from between 8 and 14 inches, together with stalks). So, I'm pretty well convinced; these are big, quick and hungry animals and, well, I think they breach the shoreline to eat. Call me crazy!!

Rick

scruffy · Aug 21, 2001

Rick, if you are gettin' desparate, do a little dynomite fishing!
That will clear them out fairly quick!

JohnS · Aug 22, 2001

While it is a bit odd, maybe you can use some type greenery for bait. Seeing how depleated their food source is, they might go for just about anything. Maybe put out some trot lines. At least the other fish will not take it.

Watch out for those dark stormy, wet nights! I see the headlines now, "ATTACK OF THE GIANT AMUR"! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif Entire pastures, lawns, and fields mysteriously disappeared over night! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

No, what you describe, sounds highly probable. Any chance of getting a photo?

JohnS

rmorgan · Aug 23, 2001

Re: Grass carp

John--

A picture would be tough; they are stealthy. I could post a shot of the elephant ears which were re-whacked last night, but it would be boring.

Your post has, however, spurred a little out-of-the-pond thinking: I could take the plow off the middle buster, strap on a row of these suckers, and phase out the belly mower whilst satiating their appetites. Maybe that's why they're called "grass" carp!! Or better than strapping---Anybody out there got expertise in welding fish?

Rick

StoneHeartFarm · Aug 23, 2001

Rick

If you only have 4-5 of these fish, why not just feed them unitl the vegetation has a chance to get well rooted and growing? Or find some REAL fast growing vegetation? (This latter is probably not a good idea).

SHF

JohnS · Aug 23, 2001

Re: Grass carp

I think you have something there. But, definitly go with harnesses and you will probably need a water tank and a little plumbing to keep their skin wet. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

My hatchery friend had relayed stories about people that would take their lawn clippings and dump them in the pond, for the grass carp to dispose of. Probably the same people who reported massive size fish. Not that this would be the best solution for lawn clippings, but it is also interesting.

Keep us updated in your eradication attempts.

JohnS

rmorgan · Aug 23, 2001

Re: Grass carp

SHF--

Thanks for the suggestion (and I appreciate the sentiment), but it's important to know that the stocking recommendation for these bad boys is 6-7 per acre of pond with a healthy crop of vegetation--and nothing's going to get well-rooted while they're around (the exception seems to be water iris, which they won't touch). On the other hand, the things that grow REAL fast in ponds are things you definitely don't want around, unless there is just one thing that is ALL you want around. I think the bottom line is, I screwed up by putting the fish in (although I have expert advice as a defense), and the fish have to pay for my mistake.

Rick

Duckhunter · Aug 23, 2001

Re: Grass carp

I have about 10 of them in my 1 acre pond that was full of moss when I moved here 12 years ago. I put them in the second year and behold, no moss. Now that you mention it I see places around the bank that appears to be undermined and drops off, not the slope it was. When I mow around the pond with a rear discharge mower, they suck up the clippings like a sponge. Friends that fish hook them from time to time but never stop them on the first run regardless of the strength of line. I personally saw 30lb test snapped like thread. I guess I will be thinning them out myself. My weapon of choice is an M-16. Ha! Ha!