Greenhouse effect ???

[CT_Tree_Guy]

Mike -

When you say that "you and I will have to agree to disagree", I'm not sure how to take that. Frankly, I would very much like to have you agree with me, and the majority of the scientific community, at least on the interaction between man-made chamicals and the ozone layer. Plus, I never did "cotton" much to being told what I have to do, even by a moderator.

If that means that I'm not free to further express my opinions on this subject, please let me know straight out if that's what you mean.

Until you tell me I can't say what I want to say, and feel is important to be said in the best interest of the future prospects for the human race, I'd like to comment on some of the things you just said.

While I am not big on anecdotal evidence - "the rooster crowed and then the sun came up, therefore the rooster made the sun come up" - I think that view that man-made chemicals such as CFC's and other "halogens" cause the destruction of beneficial stratospheric ozone is much more than an opinion, and if it is to be labeled a mere conclusion, I would add that it is a correct conclusion, based on the immutabale laws of chemistry. I honestly don't see how you, or anyone, can come to a different conclusion.

And once again, I take exception to a characterization that you have made regarding those who don't share your point of view. First, they were "arrogant", and now, they are purveyors of "doom and gloom". I am very thankful that said "doomsayers" were listened to, and listened to well. A very real problem has been put on the road to recovery, with ozone levels expected to reach "normal" levels within just a few decades. I for one am very glad to see that decisive, logical and responsible action was taken based on the hard facts that the scientific community presented to the world. I much prefer said actions to those proposed by former Secretary of the Interior James Watt, whose solution to the diminishing ozone layer was to "wear hats and put on sunscreen".

The processes affecting global warming are admittedly much more complex than those involved in the destruction of the ozone layer, but I am going to continue to advocate what I consider to be responsible measures that I feel need to be taken to mitigate what I believe to be man's impact on the rate of warming of the planet. The opinions on (accelerated) global warming that I might express are not "my facts", but are rather merely opinions that reflect the best scientific research and analysis that the finest minds (and super-computers) on the planet have to offer. It distresses me to have thoughtful opinions based the scientific method dismissed as "doom and gloom". Ironically, ignoring science just might bring about all too much of that very "doom", as much as we might want to believe otherwise.

John

 

[tposts]

<font color="blue"> tell me there isn't something going on with the weather,It should be zero or close to it at this time of year. </font>

You are having a warm spell...report back later this week and tell me what the weather is like ... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[MikePA]

John, exactly where did I tell you what to do? I didn't. We disagree. It's as simple as that.

 

[tposts]

Mike, I have to stand with you on this one.

 

[cp1969]

There are a LOT of people standing with Mike on this one. Many scientists, too.



Questions about CFC and ozone depletion.

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

<font color="blue"> You and I will have to agree to disagree. </font>

Mike -

If I took that the wrong way, it is my turn to apologize. I think it would have struck me better if you had said something like "Maybe you and I can just agree to disagree" instead of "we'll have to".

I still would like to see you agree with the conclusions reached by the scientific community, at least as far as the ozone layer is concerned. As I've said, I think that accelerated global warming is much more complex, but even there, I see man's "fine hand" at work. But the ozone depletion issue was, and is, a "slam dunk", in my opinion. Very well understood, and very well solved.

I still am not sure why you disagree with the world's top scientists on the subject of ozone depletion and man-made CFC's/halogens. You're not so much disagreeing with me, but with them. I'm just repeating what I have read on the subject, and have never encountered any credible evidence that supports a contrary opinion. What scientific basis do you have for your opinion that the two are not related? And it's OK to say, "you know what - I guess maybe I was wrong". If you can prove that there is no connection between the two, I'll do the same.

Why would I like you to agree with the things that I agree with? Because I believe them to be very likely true, and I believe that they represent very serious risks to our planet and our civilization. It gets back to the sentiment that it is arrogant to think that we can harm the planet. I would like to disabuse you, and anyone reading this, of that idea. Not so that i will be "right", but so our planet will be "alright". I firmly believe that we have the ability to screw up the planet we live on, and will almost certainly do so if we believe otherwise.

Back to global warming: If man does indeed have a role in an accelerated rate of global warming, we could well be in for tough times, and tougher times still if we don't take timely action.

Again, my goal is not to "argue" with you; it is to try to arrive at a common understanding of "the truth", and determine what steps might best be taken based on those findings. One degree C. in one century - OK, maybe not so bad. Four and a half degrees C. (9 degrees F.) in the next century? I think that would be big-time bad, and might best be avoided if at all possible. And problems, if they do indeed exist, are probably best solved once they have been recognized as problems.

John

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

<font color="blue"> There are a LOT of people standing with Mike on this one. Many scientists, too. </font>

"Many scientists" believe that the universe was created in 6 days and that the earth is 10,000 years old. I'll need a little more compelling argument than that to convince me that there is not a direct link between man-made chemicals and ozone depletion.

And I'd like to see Mike's 7 Rules applied to SEPP.org. I'm wondering just what "axe" they have to grind, especially when I read things like this on their website:

<font color="blue">Global Warming Issue: Computer models forecast rapidly rising global temperatures, but data from weather satellites and balloon instruments show no warming whatsoever. </font>

No warming whatsover. Really. If that is not utter nonsense that goes against everything I've ever heard or read on the subject of global warming ("natural", "accelerated" or otherwise), then I don't know what is. That is not science, that is propoganda.

 

[HGM]

Charles,
No offence, but I'm more inclined to accept John's EPA references over SEP(???) as they seem to be one of the groups Mike was refering to with an agenda.

While I believe that Mother Nature has a way of surviving through anything(whether we can or not), I do have to agree with John on the point that we do have an influence. How large, I dunno???

Just a random question for anyone, do you still dump your used motor oil in the ground because it wont really hurt anything, "its just someones agenda"?

The reason I make this point is because there are many things that have been acceptable in the past and are not now. Smoking cigarettes, using lard for frying, baby oil for sun tanning, drinking and driving when you were young and dumb, etc.....are all things that we relized were not in our best interest, and likely changed to prolong our time here. Regardless of your personal beliefs, you still have a say in your future.

I dont agree with the "tree huggers" that take these topics overboard, but I dont think we should be blatently arogant about our lack of ability to do harm either..

I can honestly say I'm somewhere between John and Mike on this one.. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif.. The CFC thing in the early '90s was definitly a money making proposition, but I still think it was necissary and it does appear to have worked according to science.

As for the warm winter, we're scheduled for snow Monday in Atlanta. Yes its been warmer than it has been in the past few years. This world has been constantly changing since the begining of time, just accept it and enjoy the oportunity to get more seat time /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif The cold will return soon enough.. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[MossRoad]

<font color="blue"> I believe (opinion) that it's the height of human arrogance to believe we are the cause of global warming. </font>

Mike,
Of course man is not THE cause of it, but how hard is it to believe that we are contributing significantly to it?

For example, 80 percent of the land in Indiana that was originally forest is now farm land. No trees. No bio-diversity. Just single crops with an almost sterile growing medium for soil. Fertilizer must be used because the soil won't produce because there is nothing organic in it.

The grand Kankakee marsh that once supported one of the most abundant waterfowl populations in the world is gone. Drained to make farmland. Again, a sterile growing medium with no boidiversity.

No bobcats anymore. No beavers. No otters. No passenger pigeons. No bison. Polluted water supplies from industrial contamination. Polluted air from the steel mills and autos....

And that is just my home town and state....

So, I don't find it too hard to make the leap from decimated earth to decimated atmosphere and have a hard time coping with the fact that so many people can't make that leap with me. It is fairly obvious that man has caused these problems on the ground that I have mentioned, so why is it so hard to make the same conclusions towards the atmosphere? Sure, the earth has always fluctuated wildly since way before man was here and will continue to do so until the end of time. But it is as plain as the hands in front of our faces that man has had a huge part in altering the current environment in which we live. To deny it is burying our heads in the sand.

Should we panic? No. But should we do something about the pollution we are causing? Yes. I think it will help our current situation and benefit our kids.

 

[plumboy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( <font color="blue"> tell me there isn't something going on with the weather,It should be zero or close to it at this time of year. </font>

You are having a warm spell...report back later this week and tell me what the weather is like ... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif )</font>

Absolutely,plenty of cold,snow and ice left in the years to come in this warming global climate.Getting a little snow here right now.