Hard start, smoke, then knocks, then fine?

[guyd]

F22D - so a 3T based engine, non turbo.

has had a hard life, unloved - the fuel filter was blocked solid. new filter, lines cleaned, injectors re-furbished at great expense. new glow plugs.

cylinder 3 (nearest driver) glow plug was difficult to remove due to amount of carbon buildup. other two were easy.

current symptoms:-
difficult to start. need to glow plug for 20 seconds, then use decompressor to get speed up, and full throttle. new good battery. fires reluctantly. lots of ?grey? smoke for 10 seconds, then harsh knocking noise from ?1? cylinder - 30 seconds later no smoke at all, and runs fine. Once warm, is easy to start.

is it the injection pump? unfortunatly this model has the integrated pistons, rather than the more common removeable block (ie I have to remove the whole injection pump, rather than just the three pump bits)


thanks for any suggestions

guy

 

[balernbud]

makes sure your starter is turning it fast enough, I believe the starter needs to turn at least 350 RPM to start the engine.

 

[guyd]

certainly sounds fast enough - compared to my last yanmar - a 1510 - it sounds similar. the new good battery has helped a bit, but not much. Before replacing the glow plugs, and re-furbing the injectors, it used up a whole battery to get it started......

 

[California]

cylinder 3 (nearest driver)...

Just a comment - Yanmar counts cylinders starting from the flywheel end of their engines. It makes a difference when you adjust the valves.

 

[guyd]

thanks california. Valves all have some clearance - unchecked, but all about the same.

 

[winston1]

What is the temperature where you are?

 

[284 International]

Just for thoroughness, try a new fuel filter and a good bleeding of the lines. Verify both glow plugs pull power, including when cranking the engine, and check on the valves. Too loose is better than too tight, but these are a piece of cake to adjust. The specification is 0.006" on everything I have seen, and I would expect the F22 to be the same.

15 to 20 seconds doesn't seem excessive to me on the glow plugs, especially if it isn't shorts weather. Begin with a 20 second initial preheat, then spin the motor with the compression release activated and the glow plugs still on.

With all that done, I'll be surprised if it doesn't start better for you.

 

[guyd]

Its about 10 to 15C - southern england - certainly warm jacket weather.

No harm in a new filter I suppose - the original one was so blocked it had to be bypassed and a throwaway one fitted inline.

I have done a crude valve clearance check - by wiggling the tappets on TDC - I have some experience of this, having done many japanese motorbikes in the past. Will double check.

Worth passing some diesel cleaner through?

Cant spin and pre-heat at the same time, as ign key is left for pre-heat, right for start....

Weirdly, after replacing the glow plugs, the glow plug light no longer works (bulb is ok).

 

[guyd]

Its about 10 to 15C - southern england - certainly warm jacket weather.

No harm in a new filter I suppose - the original one was so blocked it had to be bypassed and a throwaway one fitted inline.

I have done a crude valve clearance check - by wiggling the tappets on TDC - I have some experience of this, having done many japanese motorbikes in the past. Will double check.

Worth passing some diesel cleaner through?

Cant spin and pre-heat at the same time, as ign key is left for pre-heat, right for start....

Weirdly, after replacing the glow plugs, the glow plug light no longer works (bulb is ok).

 

[scottlw]

I dont have much experience at all, but would say something isnt right.

I have an F18D and also in southern england.

I know the battery in mine isnt very good and havent tested that the TS is working (light came on once on the dash, and doesnt with the test button so maybe the bulb), but in normal temperatures ie 10c upwards i dont have to use the TS, set full throttle use the decomp lever turn over for 5 seconds or so, let go and it probably starts on second revolution of compression.

Only time it hasnt done this was a few weeks ago when it was -7c when i released the decomp it slowed to a stop without starting (im sure due to weak battery). Went again with decomp and started on second revolution again.

I get a very small puff of grey smoke when it starts then nothing.

I do need to test if voltage is getting to the glow plug.

I know i havent offered a fix (far more helpful people on here) but hope a similar machine in same area for comparison may help?

 

[284 International]

Weirdly, after replacing the glow plugs, the glow plug light no longer works (bulb is ok).

I would start there. My diesels without glow plugs give me the same grey puffs when trying to start cold, since I don't have glow plugs or a thermostart.

I don't think the valves are the problem yet, since there is clearance under the rocker arms.

Some (Most? All?) of the key switches are configured such that the pre heater is activated when in the start position. However, the switches are notorious for going bad over 30 years of sitting out in the weather. In verifying the glow plugs pull current, you may want to be sure the switch sends current when in the start position, too.

I really think you have a glow plug issue at this point. Good luck!

 

[clemsonfor]

Does this thing have glow plugs or thermostart? Some of yall are talking about both??:confused2:

Since this is a new FX model i assume it has glow plugs. But it souunds normal for an engine with some wear on it trying to start in cold weather. Being american the only celcius conversions i know off hand are 100 degrees and 0 degrees and i forget the little formula and am to lazy to look it up but doset it have to do something with like 1.7 degrees or somewhere? so i guessing that 7 degrees is somewhere in the 40s F right? My YM2000 will start no thermostart down to freezing but still wont start as hard as what it sounds like yours is? I think your plugs are not preheating right, that or your motor is just wore slap out. whats the compression?

 

[guyd]

10c = 50F

glow plugs, not thermostart (my old 1510 was thermostart)

No idea what compression is - have no way of testing.


thank you all for your help so far. Have found a weeping fuel line from lift pump to injection pump, which im sure will help now its been replaced.

 

[MasseyWV]

cylinder 3 (nearest driver) glow plug was difficult to remove due to amount of carbon buildup. other two were easy.

I'm not familiar with that engine but I'd be concerned about all that carbon buildup and would consider removing the head to give it a good cleaning and inspection.

 

[clemsonfor]

I would not remove the injector, i would however, run about .5-1 gallon of deisel in the tank to 1 full bottle or more of seafoam, and run the chit out of it till almost out of feul to try and clear some of the carbon out.

 

[YanmarFever]

Have you checked the glow plug timer, also check that the glow plugs are getting power when you turn on the key...

 

[guyd]

thanks guys - seafoam isnt available in the UK.... Ill try the local equivilent.

timer? lol - it aint that sophisticated - its just a left turn of the key to my knowledge. Yes - they are getting power - its obvious as it will start after a 20 second left turn, but wont if you dont. if you see what I mean. still odd that it doesnt light the light on the dash - will investigate tomorrow.

 

[Wnc3]

Air in the fuel lines can cause these same symptoms. This probably only happens after it is cold and been sitting. I think i would tighten and check the lines and make sure they are not sucking air.

 

[YanmarFever]

thanks guys - seafoam isnt available in the UK.... Ill try the local equivilent.

timer? lol - it aint that sophisticated - its just a left turn of the key to my knowledge. Yes - they are getting power - its obvious as it will start after a 20 second left turn, but wont if you dont. if you see what I mean. still odd that it doesnt light the light on the dash - will investigate tomorrow.

While you are laughing about the timer, why dont you buy a manual from hoyetractor, then you can see where its located.
If your glow plug timer worked it would not take 20 seconds.

Good Luck......

 

[284 International]

Yes - they are getting power - its obvious as it will start after a 20 second left turn, but wont if you dont.

It may mean that only one of the glow plugs is working properly, though, and once that cylinder fires things start moving fast enough to ignite the mixture in the non- glowing cylinder. I think confirming both glow plugs work properly would at least permit crossing that off the trouble shooting chart.

A little air in the lines may also cause these symptoms, and you may be experiencing a little bit of both.

You'll get it working, keep it up!