Hardware for Thumb fabrication

   / Hardware for Thumb fabrication #11  
I must be missing something, to me and I have a mechanical thumb. You need to find a cyl that is short enough when retracted to pull the thumb up and long enough when extended to have the thumb in place to use. I would think you retract the thumb and measure that distance and then measure the length of the brace you currently use to hold the thumb in working position. That should give you the retracted and extended lengths you need. Now if those numbers will not match a cylinder ok, change a mount. You need a cyl that has the capacity to hold what the bucket can push against it but not so strong you could damage the dipper or any part of the boom.
 
   / Hardware for Thumb fabrication
  • Thread Starter
#12  
My mounts are too close to use existing mounts. I have to weld a new bracket on the stick above the existing mount plus a new mount onto the thumb cross bar. I figured the geometry today and have a cylinder picked out.
 
   / Hardware for Thumb fabrication
  • Thread Starter
#13  
Might you get any information from the thumb manufacturer, or the dipper manufacturer? I misread the size of your machine. This would be considered an 8 ton machine as excavator model numbers all include metric tonnage.

The safe thing would be to treat the dipper as high strength steel. This means using filler metal that is very ductile. Preheat provides three benefits.

Distortion: welds shrink a lot when they cool. If the workpiece is expanded somewhat before weld is applied, it too will shrink as it cools, greatly reducing stress which is where cracks begin. If everything is hot at the onset, there will be less change in the shape.

Hydrogen: As welds cool hydrogen atoms migrate to the perimeter of the molten steel. If this is well defined, it forms a surface, (think of non stick coating on a frying pan), preventing effective fusion. Hot workpiece means most of the hydrogen has been driven off, and cooling will be more gradual, meaning the deposit of hydrogen molecules will be dispersed, not forming a barrier.

Slow cooling: Crystal structure is very different depending largely on carbon content, and cooling rate. Fast cooling makes the structure of crystals more Martensitic, (brittle, and hard) Slower cooling makes steel more Austenitic, (ductile, and tough).

Experts will disagree as to optimum temperature for preheat. I'd say 300 F at least 700F might be pushing it. Dippers break after being welded, and all the extra precaution in the world is not too much if you can avoid a break.

I have a friend who lives in a city in another state. When he comes to his getaway place in VT he loves to rent equipment, and play. He called one rainy evening; he broke the shiny thing on the front. I went to look. The bucket cylinder rod did indeed have a 45 degree curve in it, and was broken clean. In the dark, in the rain with a weak flashlight, I could barely see a triangle of black where the orange dipper should be. He had cracked it open, only the front of the dipper bent instead of breaking.

I've seen that machine several times since. The rental company keeps doing crude weld repairs, and sending it out on yet another rental. It has been broken, and "patched several times. A competent weldor could fix it once.

In your case I suggest a skilled weldor use 7018 Fresh from a sealed container, or oven. A less skilled weldor such as myself might resort to Dual Shield MIG to come close to maximum strength. In either case, avoid fillers with tensile strength over 70,000. It'll only pull weld away from workpiece as it cools. Also, weld strength improves after a minor stretch. I think of tensile strength as Rope vs cable. Rope will "give" a bit , but hold. Cable frays if strained, and weakens. High tensile fillers tear away from work metal, ductile fillers give a bit, and gain strength.

I thought when you check steel with a file and it bites it indicates non hardened or standard steel? I believe I am capable of completing this project. I will be using 7018 ac rod. By the way, great explanation.
 
   / Hardware for Thumb fabrication #14  
I thought when you check steel with a file and it bites it indicates non hardened or standard steel? I believe I am capable of completing this project. I will be using 7018 ac rod. By the way, great explanation.

Did you check the dipper? I'd expect a 20 metric ton machine to have a dipper of high carbon steel. A lighter machine might have steel of milder composition. In either case preheat is good. There is a point where preheat might be too much, but I believe in the 300F to 700F you won't go wrong. You can get crayons to measure heat, or an infrared gun is otherwise useful, convenient, and reasonably priced.

There is no risk you have intentionally hardened steel. Manufacturers want strong not hard. High tensile steel is more expensive, engineers would avoid it unless essential. Either mild hot rolled, or high carbon steel will cut easily with a file if not hardened. A spark test, (I can't read very well) would tell you.

Will you weld out of position, or find a way to place welds flat? I've not had good success with AC vertical 7018.

Wanna try Dual Shield?
 
   / Hardware for Thumb fabrication
  • Thread Starter
#15  
Did you check the dipper? I'd expect a 20 metric ton machine to have a dipper of high carbon steel. A lighter machine might have steel of milder composition. In either case preheat is good. There is a point where preheat might be too much, but I believe in the 300F to 700F you won't go wrong. You can get crayons to measure heat, or an infrared gun is otherwise useful, convenient, and reasonably priced.

There is no risk you have intentionally hardened steel. Manufacturers want strong not hard. High tensile steel is more expensive, engineers would avoid it unless essential. Either mild hot rolled, or high carbon steel will cut easily with a file if not hardened. A spark test, (I can't read very well) would tell you.

Will you weld out of position, or find a way to place welds flat? I've not had good success with AC vertical 7018.

Wanna try Dual Shield?

A file will take the steel off. I will try and get the stick as flat as possible and then weld up with slightly lower amps to and see what happens.
 
   / Hardware for Thumb fabrication #16  
A file will take the steel off. I will try and get the stick as flat as possible and then weld up with slightly lower amps to and see what happens.

Bury the rod tip all you can. Low volt, high amp is the formula to put your deposit deep in the weld crater where it won't sag. This requires the amperage be kept higher to avoid sticking.

Long arc, on the other hand, gives high voltage/low amperage. Much of the heat generated is wasted in the air. It places the deposit on the surface where it doesn't produce a crater, freezes more slowly, and is more likely to drip.

If it were me, I would not experiment with AC on something important. I'd borrow, rent DC, or hire someone.
 
   / Hardware for Thumb fabrication
  • Thread Starter
#17  
Thanks for all the info. I will update when I complete it.
 

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