Hay making help

   / Hay making help #41  
CowBoyDoc:

Don't break it down like that. I always let my wife do it and I NEVER look.

We are getting dumped on again. I got everything rolled on first and most of it is in the barns. Time for the fertilizer carts.
 
   / Hay making help #42  
Cowboydoc,
I expected you not to understand cow-calf, you are in row crop country. Row crop country people often think as if feeding steers is the only way to own cattle. Go talk to my buddy Don Stickle in Anamosa, IA. He knows how to make money with cattle. The secret is to purchase young thin cows in the winter/spring already breed. Breed them to a Black bull for the second crop of calves. If a cow is paid for in less than 2.5 calves she was a good value purchase. Buy low and sell high. Everyone in the mountains is a trader, we just know how to make it on less. Calves gross $400-600 per year. If you make a good profit purchase new equipment, just do not give the money to the government. You learn to live on what you make. Pay cash and do not borrow money for a new pickup trucks or new tractors.
 
   / Hay making help #43  
Mark,

I use to be from over in Eastman country and I can say with some certanty that folks in eastern TN do not have a corner on the cow market.
We have a few out here in the midwest as well.

Bottom line is how with record cow prices are you going to make money by starting or growing a herd now? The only way is if prices keep going up.
This is not a smart bet.

If you already have the cows to sell, well then thats a different story.

Also hay does not get sick and die on you like cows will ocasionally do. Loose a few cows in the hot summer and or cold winter and its hard on profits.

Fred
 
   / Hay making help #44  
Daryl,

What type of grass are you growing? and when do you usually get your cuttings each year?

Fred
 
   / Hay making help #45  
Mark I've been running cow/calf operations all of my life. It's all most of my family has ever known or done. Between my family and myself we run over 5000 head a year. I do know more than my fair share about how to make money on cattle and how you lose it on cattle as well. My place in Iowa is only about half row crop. The rest is cow/calf operation on pastures. We just finished a monumental project in rotational grazing that was the largest project in the state last year.

In Idaho my family has over 35,000 acres that is 30,000 acres of alot of barren ground that takes 20 acres/pair to get them through. Then we have some really good irrigated ground that with good management we are getting a pair by on acre/pair. We have about 15,000 in leased land from the government that you better have your pencil sharpened and your thinking cap on as to how to make it work even buying like you say and selling. My family has been running cow/calf operations for 150 years in the west. There's a heck of alot more to it than buying thin cattle and breeding them to any old black bull. It's no secret trying to make money that way. The trick there is to keep the skinny, diseased, suckers alive long enough to get a calf from them provided that you can even get them pregnant because they are so stressed. And not even to mention the fact you've got to keep that cow for a year before you even have a calf and then keep the calf at a minimum of 6 months to sell them. Provided everything goes right, and that rarely happens, in two years time you may see your first check from that cow. By that time you've fed that cow 24,000 lbs. of hay, at a minimum if you've taken care of that cow with shots, worming, etc. you've got another $100 in that. Then if you've fed any supplement over the winter you've probably got another $10/month average in that. On average you'll have $300-500/average per year in expenses on a cow. So yea you may pay for that cow in 2.5 calves but you sure as heck aren't going to pay for the expenses on that cow. Then factor in the fact that they are at the sale for a reason and half of them are either poor calvers, poor breeders, diseased, mean and hard on fences, etc. and good luck making money once you figure in your losses. Yea people make money but also lose money on it as well. If it was that easy everyone would be doing it. It isn't that easy.

Your best way to make money on cattle is start with good breeding stock, buy the best bull you can afford or AI to good bulls. Build up your own herd over a number of years continually improving your breeding stock. Immediately cull bad cattle and keep a good herd. And lastly plan on working 24/7 and keep your pencil sharp and change with the times and you might make a profit.

I sure am going to have to move to your area of the world. Your hay never gets rained on. You have such great fields you mow and bale hay at 10 mph. You have time for full-time jobs and full-time farming. You even make money on all of your cattle all the time and have that figured out as well.
 
   / Hay making help #46  
Coyboydoc,
Just got 30 acres of hay wet today but the tedder will have it ready Saturday. I do not live in a perfect world. We live on what we make. We use the resources we have. We live debt free. We do not farm to the government programs. The funny thing is we make it work here because we are willing to work and trust in the LORD. Allot of people can not make it because they are not willing to work. Our soil is no where near as good as the Iowa soil. Little is much when God is in it.
 
   / Hay making help #47  
40 years out of date and from an area with much harsher climate.

As I recall young thin bred heifers were considered a liability. They were taken to the auction mart. Calving could present problems. The calves were small and did not gain weight properly in respect to feed required.

Good bulls changed every three years or less and breeding cows in good condition and at least two years old were sorta minimum requirements for a good return on the investment.

The calves were fed to about 1100 - 1200 pounds and then shipped to the meat processing plant.

As I recall around 20 degrees farenheight was an optimum temperature for feed / weight gain of the feeders.

Again 40 years out of date. Shorthorns or Herfords. A few people kept Angus but were in a minority. This changed with the addition of large European bulls which changed the industry but that portion I'm not familiar with. From the little I know it caused caving problems with smaller cows.

Egon
 
   / Hay making help #48  
Just to clarify Mark. I think you should make a trip out west and see the kind of ground people make a living on out there. You're doing dang good on most of that ground if you can run a cow/calf pair on 20 acres. It also all proportions out as well. Good farmground here rents for $200 or more/acre. Even pasture ground goes for $50-100/acre. Rents there and land prices are much lower so it doesn't cost as much to farm there. It all evens out. It doesn't matter where you live whether it's Iowa, TN, KY, ID, MT, etc. If you're going to make it in farming/ranching you need to do all the things you said. It's not just the guys where you live.

As far as government programs the leases are NOT govt. programs. We PAY the govt. to use the land to run the cattle on. In addition to paying for that we are responsible for all the fencing, responsible for all the care of the land, and responsible for any damage caused by the cattle. It's not like a subsidy. BTW I think you should look at the govt. subsidy page for your state. It looks like quite a few of the farmers/ranchers take advantage of govt. programs in your state.
 
   / Hay making help #49  
You're right on all accounts Egon. The hardest thing for my grandfather to do was to go to black cattle. His family spent 40 years building up one of the finest hereford cattle ranches in the area. When black took off the last thing he ever wanted to do was to switch to baldys and black cattle. He still runs alot of herefords that he crosses with Angus bulls and gets some nice black baldies. But he has a pretty nice purebred angus breeding operation now too. They've experiments quite a bit with the mixed bulls to get the bigger calves as well. You have to change with the times and that ability to change and adapt is what keeps you going.
 
   / Hay making help #50  
Phred:

This is how we do it here on our land in our local area. I say this because different crops as well as different locations and soils effect this equation.

We try to cut when I look across our fields and I see about 20% blossom content. I like to cut after a rain, starting in the morning about 10:00a.m. I'll cut until after dark as long as I don't see too much misting behind the crimp rolls. This year, because of the amount of rainfall we got, my partner roller crimped the forage behind the mower conditioner. We had an exceptionally "leggy" crop.

When we seed a field, we use an Alfalfa/Timothy/Broome Grass mixture. I use high grade Vernal Alfalfa, Hybrid Timothy and Native Broome. We have seeded by broadcast, Unverferth but the best way is pneumatic seeding using a Terragator. Not everyone has access to a Terragator I know, but we do and it's a quick very even method for seeding. We try to run the cultipacker over the seeded field immediately to set the seed and keep it from blowing (we have a lot of wind here).

Other than the 20% rule, I also test NIR as to protein content as well as undesirable traits. We log the NIR every year to give us a basis for field management. Litchfield Analytical Services does our NIR. We have an advantage as they are located locally for us, but they test nationally and have a fast turnaround.

We frost seed (over seed) after our last cut and pre winter fertilizer/potash application.

Hope this helps. I can't run hay for you. I have enough to do of my own. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

We cut every 29 days after our first cut. That is, as long as we get the proper rainfall. We also fertilize between each cut and add a dash of Boron with the exception of the overwinter application.

One of the hardest thing for me to do is work a day job and make hay. It's even harder for my partner. He has a day job and a 300 head confinement operation. Retirement comes not soon enough for me. I can retire to the farm, oh boy!!
 

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