Heat pump replacement.... ideas on which brands are better?

[Sigarms]

Richard,

SEER is the "Seasonal Energy Efficiency Rating" all that means is the higher the seer the less energy that system will need to cool the same space.

When you get into the higher seer units you get into the variable speed blowers in the furnace, variable compressors in the condenser or multi stage compressors.

He's right about control boards to run all that stuff, it's crazy expensive, just a defrost board is $190 and it's the size of a dollar bill folded in half usually. The more advanced the system the more advanced controls it takes to manage the equipment.

But in a perfect world you won't ever lose a control board. Moisture, heat, vibration, bugs ext all can lower the life of a exterior board, they do fail prematurely sometimes.

It also takes a bit of a smarter installer to install and set up correctly a high seer unit with variable speed everything.

I'm a fan of a oversized indoor coil paired with a correct size condenser to your house, you can take a 15 seer unit, put a variable speed blower in the furnace and oversize the indoor coil and make it a 16 seer without the cost of a 16 seer system.

Generally the higher the seer the more surface area of the indoor coil as well as a much larger outside coil, if you see the outside condenser stand 5ft tall and 3.5ft wide on a less than 2000 sq ft house that's why, the coils are massive.

Another bit of info for you, I have installed Gibson, Carrier, York, Lenox, Trane, Rheem and a few others I can't remember and most use either a Copeland or Emerson compressors. Scrolls will be in every heat pump, they handle liquid slugging much better than hermetic compressors found in regular A/Cs, im not sure what Trane uses, they wrap there compressors and there usually like 3 times bigger than the normal Copeland's and Emerson's. I'm not a fan of Trane, idk why there compressors are so freaking massive and heavy but they are.

1 - There are WAY to many variables with a retrofit replacement to make a blanket statement that the higher the SEER, the less energy that system will need (see my previous post about existing ductwork for one, and static pressure issues affect on a varaiable speed blower just for 2 quick points).

2 - EER, HSPF and COP is just as, if not more important that SEER rating.

3 - If the outdoor unit is AHRI rated with the indoor coil, the coil will NOT be oversized. What you're doing is making the same mistake as many others as assuming that the model number on the coil is the actual tonnage of coil (although there is some relationship between the coil model and outdoor model).

4 - A X-13 motor (which is a ECM motor) is MORE energy efficient that a true "variable speed" ECM motor. It is wrong to make a blanket statement that by adding a variable speed motor to a system you automatically increase the systems SEER rating (I can think of multiple brands / AHRI match ups where this is the case).

5- Scrolls will NOT be in every heat pump. When the scroll first came out, people thought it was the godsend to end compressor failures. Not the case. I've seen studies from manufacturers that point that the failure rate of a rotary compressor has a lower failure rate (somthing to be said for a simple piston design).

I'm not trying to be argumentative, only pointing out that you're making blanket statements which are incorrect and can be misleading.

 

[IXLR8]

Do you know the difference between a heat pump and a regular A/C system?

Yes, I know the difference. I want to replace the aging A/C cooling only units with Heat Pump units so I don't have to use the electric baseboard heaters to heat the house.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

1 - There are WAY to many variables with a retrofit replacement to make a blanket statement that the higher the SEER, the less energy that system will need (see my previous post about existing ductwork for one, and static pressure issues affect on a varaiable speed blower just for 2 quick points).

2 - EER, HSPF and COP is just as, if not more important that SEER rating.

3 - If the outdoor unit is AHRI rated with the indoor coil, the coil will NOT be oversized. What you're doing is making the same mistake as many others as assuming that the model number on the coil is the actual tonnage of coil (although there is some relationship between the coil model and outdoor model).

4 - A X-13 motor (which is a ECM motor) is MORE energy efficient that a true "variable speed" ECM motor. It is wrong to make a blanket statement that by adding a variable speed motor to a system you automatically increase the systems SEER rating (I can think of multiple brands / AHRI match ups where this is the case).

5- Scrolls will NOT be in every heat pump. When the scroll first came out, people thought it was the godsend to end compressor failures. Not the case. I've seen studies from manufacturers that point that the failure rate of a rotary compressor has a lower failure rate (somthing to be said for a simple piston design).

I'm not trying to be argumentative, only pointing out that you're making blanket statements which are incorrect and can be misleading.

1. So a 15 seer unit will be less efficient or the same as a 10 seer hooked up to the same duct work?

3. Increasing the size of the indoor coil doesn't make a system more efficient?

4. How much more efficient? I said add a variable speed blower and a larger indoor coil can bump the seer rating on the equipment, that's an incorrect statement? Not just adding a variable speed blower.

5. Who uses a hermetically sealed rotary compressor in a residential heat pump?

I wasn't making the statement that every heatpump in the world will have a scroll, but I'm unaware of any new residential heatpumps that has a rotary compressor.

 

[CADplans]

1. So a 15 seer unit will be less efficient,,,,,?

3. Increasing the size,,,,,,, ?

4. How much more efficient,,,,,,?

You can not answer an efficiency question with one answer,,
or give a specific answer to a group of questions,,,

For efficiency,,,, whether it is a heat pump, or a new automobile,,,
the answer has to be the entire system being designed correctly.

 

[Sigarms]

1. So a 15 seer unit will be less efficient or the same as a 10 seer hooked up to the same duct work?

3. Increasing the size of the indoor coil doesn't make a system more efficient?

4. How much more efficient? I said add a variable speed blower and a larger indoor coil can bump the seer rating on the equipment, that's an incorrect statement? Not just adding a variable speed blower.

5. Who uses a hermetically sealed rotary compressor in a residential heat pump?

I wasn't making the statement that every heatpump in the world will have a scroll, but I'm unaware of any new residential heatpumps that has a rotary compressor.

1 - If a brand new 15 SEER unit connected to a the exact same ductwork an existing 10 SEER system was connected to, the 15 SEER would be more "efficient", the problem is you could be throwing your money away by increasing the SEER rating by a very long term return on investment due to the duct conditions. Long story short, the best return on investment in the past was going from 13 to 14 SEER. Every manufacturer will also tell you that your return on investment stopped at 15 SEER and that once you get into 16 SEER 2 stage compressor bearing equipment (and now inverter compressors), you're paying for comfort, not ROI (that may change in time when pricing comes down due to DOE regulations and the SEER rating is yet still increased by the minimum requirements from the government). The reality is that unless you do a air leakage test on your existing ductwork, you have no clue as to how much more efficient a higher system will actually be. That said, a 10 SEER system running for 10 years that has never been serviced or have it's coils cleaned will most likely be getting you 7 SEER if you're lucky, and that 15 SEER system may only be 13 SEER 4 years later without ever being cleaned, added the fact that if you're using a variable speed blower motor, yes, the amp draw (useing more power on a regular basis) is going to go up if the motor is compensating for bad ductwork, which means you could never see a ROI going to a higher SEER system.

3 - The reason why systems are matched by the manufacturer is so that coils are NOT oversized. Yes, manufacturers will allow the useage of a "30" coil (2.5 ton) or even a "36" (3 ton) to a "24" outdoor unit (2 ton), but your assuming that square surface area for both the indoor and outdoor coil for all manufacturers is the same. Will adding a larger coil increase the SEER rating? In some cases, yes it will. Looking at a line I generally don't deal with as much as much, Goodman... 2.5 ton 14 SEER outdoor heat pump with a ASPT37C (21" wide" coil) will give you 15 SEER, but so will a AVPTC30, but a smaller AVPTC36 will only give you 14.5 SEER. My point is you can't make assumptions but KNOW the actual ratings the manufacturer is giving you so you know what you're actually getting per SEER rating.

Heck, a little while ago, a manufacturer no longer had a 14 year replacement coil in production. Ended up going with a 1.5 ton new coil that the manufacturer approved for the existing 2.5 ton outdoor unit. People tend to forget that the coil IS actually rated to the SEER rating of the outdoor unit to get the actual SEER rating of the system (a 2.5 ton 10 SEER coil is much physically smaller than a 2.5 ton 14 SEER coil produced today). The ONLY reason why a new 1.5 ton coil could be used is because the coil surface area was designed around a 14 SEER outdoor unit and the existing unit was only 10 SEER. You could guess at something as far as "making something work that won't hurt the refrigeration cycle by over sizing the coil, but without the actual approval of the manufacturer for coil/air handler match up, you could void the systems warranty.

What's SO funny about this conversation about SEER rating is that the OP asking the question about heat pumps is located in Knoxville Tennessee. The reality is Knoxville Tennessee has around 1288 cooling hours vs 1900 heating hours. Although SEER rating is somewhat important about energy savings, what MORE important to consider is the HSPF and COP rating because his heat pump will spend more time heating than cooling.

4 - That statement is correct as long as the manufacturer has rated the system. Per my example given above per Goodman, yes, it would bump the SEER rating higher. This however is NOT always the case. Generally, good HVAC companies will ALWAYS provide a AHRI certificate which shows verification by a third party (that the manufacturer has paid for) that the system is "matched".

5 - I know for a fact that JCI uses a rotary compressor in some of their 14 SEER heat pump units which covers at least 4 brands (also used in their older 13 SEER systems). I also remember coming across some others, but at this point in time would need to look through files.

Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative and apologies if I'm coming across that way. My only point is when it comes to HVAC systems, you shouldn't make blanket statements about SEER ratings and energy savings.

On a sidenote, my bet is is 16 SEER will be DOE's minimum requirement in 2020 and that's with some good intel That said, least of the HVAC problems as everyone is trying to figure out exactly what is going to replace R410A (amazingly stupid on the governments part when you think about the time and investment every manufacturer had to go through to change over from R22 equipment to R410A equipment).

 

[Sigarms]

You can not answer an efficiency question with one answer,,
or give a specific answer to a group of questions,,,

For efficiency,,,, whether it is a heat pump, or a new automobile,,,
the answer has to be the entire system being designed correctly.

Well said.

The issue in the HVAC industry is exactly how many existing jobs were done with a proper load and duct design?

I'm still AMAZED at how many 2.5 or 3 ton AC systems need a 80,000 BTU furnace (below the mason dixon line).

 

[Turbys_1700]

My first heat pump system was installed over 22 years ago. Complete new ductwork, return air unit, and outside unit. Replaced an oil furnace. Was a Bryant that lasted over 18 years. I did have to replace a capacitor and a condensation reservoir. It was an 11 seer unit and worked fine. I believe it was a 2.5 ton unit for my small 1450 sq. foot house. When it finally gave up the ghost my new system was a Goodman installed by a 20 year veteran in the industry that I attend church with. Replaced the return air unit and outside unit with a 13 seer unit. The design and install of both of my systems have been excellent.

 

[techman]

For an AC, higher SEER (EER) does save energy, but the savings are often not enough to make economic sense. A rough comparison, hardware only w/o install, costs are roughly 14 - $ 1800, 16 - $ 2000 and 18 - $ 3000. These are installer costs (or if you buy on the internet yourself).

If you look ate the attached sheet you will see that from a 16 to 18 it would take many years to break even. Now there are a number of variables, such as energy costs and climate (sheet estimate is mid-atlantic east coast). Despite that, in general the highest SEERs do not pay.

Paul

 

[Sigarms]

Now there are a number of variables, such as energy costs and climate (sheet estimate is mid-atlantic east coast). Despite that, in general the highest SEERs do not pay.

Paul

As mentioned, higher SEER 2 stage / inverter compressor bearing systems don't really have a ROI, however, you do pay for comfort, and that comfort is real, particularly with humdity control.

During the summer, my first floor dosen't go under 77 degrees, but I'm running 40% relative humidity with a whole house dehumidifier on the first floor, and averaging about 44% on the third floor and basement. I changed out two of my 3 systems, the last being about 8 years ago, and during that time, it made no sense to spend money on a 2 stage 16 SEER heat pump system for "comfort" and made more sense to spend the money on a whole house dehumidifier (at the time, even at a set point of 72, I was running slightly over 50% RH). However, I am paying for that amp draw on the whole house dehumidifer during the summer months. People tend to forget that humidity levels play a significant factor in comfort compared to the actual temperature. Single stage non variable speed blower systems have little control over existing humidity levels, other than some people telling you to "upsize" the AC system for the home in hopes of dropping humidity. We all know bigger is always better

At this point, every inverter system I've seen go in with a variable speed blower has dropped the humidity levels significantly (all existing ductwork sealed up with a blast test done to verify air leakage). The last summer job recorded, a 3 ton 16 SEER 5 speed system replaced a standard 2.5 ton single stage system, the house was normally running at 53% RH level during the summer. System was started up at 4PM, homeowner came home from work at 8PM, and the house was at 73 degrees and dropped the humidity level down to 44% and the homeowner was tickled to death because even though the temperature was the same that they were used to, it had a lot less "stuffy" feeling. The homeowner was more than happy to have paid the price difference for that better humidity control.

Thing is, without running a duct test, there is no way you can make any promise how the system will perform. Hard to believe, but running a duct test actually costs money as the testing equipment is not cheap. That said, every "pro" should at least be checking the CFM's from each register to verify airflow IMO. People will tell you that they are happy with their current system because in most cases, that is what they were used to. Charge them 5k and higher for a new system, and any little detail that they had forgotten about in the past they may miraculously remember after they pay you to make it right lol.

I know one guy who had a horry story and the homeowner was screwed because the system was blowing EXTREMELY HIGH static pressure. Thing is, he wouldn't of known why it was a horror story unless he checked the static pressure like I had suggested to him. Bad ductwork on a new system is still bad ductwork and will kill any kind of performance your hoping to gain with a new system. It wasn't until he checked his SP that he realized that something MUST be wrong with the duct and he started to take it apart and look at it. Didn't take long to find the collasped lined ductwork on the return ductwork. Ask most HVAC service techs what the air flow on the system is their checking and they'll tell you "good" lol

There are very specific legitimate reasons why HVAC professionals offer indoor air quality products and higher performance systems that may not have a ROI. It's their job IMO to inform the customer of the pros and cons vs price.