Help I being Screwed!!

[greenmule]

Yeah,don't pay them a cent.
This talk of hydrolics doing this and that is like vodoo. Even if you handled it not like a professional hoe operator,as far as over/under extending,push,letting stuff drop,etc,it shouldn't have broke just cause of that. And people say it might be the cause,thats just it,might don't get it,if your wanting some one to pay thousands of dollars to fix YOUR machine.
Unless its got obvious damage that can for sure be traced to reckless operator,they can't prove it anyways.

Damage insurance huh,well still say that if the agreement don't specify what you got to fix and what you don't than why buy the insurance. Sounds like they are wanting you to pay for insurance for them,when you don't have to pay more than rental price. They are the ones that choose to get into this risky bussiness of renting out equipement,not you.

Sounds like they maybe related to those fast high interest rate loans or credit card companys.
Yeah,thats a pretty good bussiness if people let them get away with it,once they buy it,they never have a repair cost,cause of course,somebody else was using it when something broke or wore out.

 

[nediver]

Thank you for the overwhelming number of posts. I did sign a contract that says if anything breaks I pay for it. I re-read and this included belts, tires, everything.

I have emailed allmand the same pics and not gotten a response.

If I had abused the machine I would have paid for it.

They are holding two days rental even though I only put in 1/2 days work.

There is no determined value that I being pursued for as of yet, but it will not be small. Because I know I am being charged downtime as well.

There is a damage waiver that I was never offered. But Im not sure it was applicable on this piece of equipment.

I have not involved my insurance company, they are aware but Im not having them pursue at this time.

I still have the rock I will post pictures of it soon.

I ended up getting the rock out with the loader and pushing it across my driveway to the resting spot where its at with edge of loader.

 

[nediver]

Rock that is in question of breaking the cylinder

rock that father-in-law dug out with Kubota L2800 in backround

 

[nediver]

As stated before, they are giving you the run around and attempting to scam you into paying for something that isn't your fault or responsibility.
That hoe has hydraulic relief valves. You should be able to hold any hydraulic control lever in any fully extended or retracted position for minutes on end ( if you wanted to... but nobody's going to) and not hurt the cylinders or the hydraulic components or pump. That's the way they are designed. I regularly run a Komatsu W200 wheel loader and Case 580 BH at work and "dead end" the hydraulics every time I'm on them, same thing with my personal tractor. When that happens, the relief valve opens and you let off the control a little and go on. The Allmand's cylinder was fatigued or the system relief failed, one or the other. Neither being your fault. Tell them to take a hike. If you want to make sure this is all correct, call Allmand and run it by them and see if they designed their equipment to fail when a cylinder is dead headed, they'll laugh and explain why your local rental company is run by idiots.
Brad Allmand (800) 562-1373 ballmand@allmand.com

Brad allmand has responded that, "he will get the appropriate people involved". I hope that I get the answers i am looking for.

Seems cut and dry to everyone including me but I am still being pursued as if this isn't a wear and tear but abuse problem.

Thanks Kernopelli

 

[greenmule]

OOPS,there it is than,you signed saying you would,cut and dry.

Yeah you'd better talk to your insurance people.

 

[nediver]

OOPS,there it is than,you signed saying you would,cut and dry.

Yeah you'd better talk to your insurance people.

i signed for abuse and neglect not wear and tear. Hence the issue.

 

[J_J]

The retaining ring gave out, simple as that. There is nothing you did wrong. If there was excessive pressure in the system, either the rod would have bent or the barrel would have split first. They're trying to hose you and get you to pay for something that just happens to equipment. It gets old and breaks, simple as that.
When new cylinders are manufactured, they are usually tested to 1.5x their rated pressure for at least 5 minutes.

JJ, that theory would hold except for it's the wrong end of the cylinder. Ram force from dropping a bucket would not put any excessive pressure on the gland end of the cylinder.

I think my theory is right on, that this break was caused by weak steel and excessive pressure, or caused the rod being jerked out of the cyl by mechanical force which rolled the bucket on past the stop point. Where else are you going to get that kind of pressure to blow the top off except by ram force. I hope it doesn't cost Kernopelli anything, but you have to look at the logic of all this. It left the rental place and was accepted by operator. How many hours on the backhoe before it broke. Now don't go and slam me to hard, and take my rice.

 

[Kernopelli]

I hope it doesn't cost Kernopelli anything, but you have to look at the logic of all this.

Thanks for the goodwill JJ but it was Nediver that had the incident, I was just one of the responders.

 

[J_J]

Thanks for the goodwill JJ but it was Nediver that had the incident, I was just one of the responders.

I am sorry, I thought you were the first poster. Me bad, and getting old.

 

[nediver]

I am sorry, I thought you were the first poster. Me bad, and getting old.

there was 1600 hrs on it and i was told by the owner that had never happened on the machine. I was the lucky person it happened to. I have solicited info from manufacturer about the service schedule on this tractor. I also sent pics in hope they would determine what happened.

I ran a car rental business for 4 years. I understand rental. There are two sides to this. 1- i abused the equipment or 2- it was wear and tear

There has to be some good faith between people. Besides when I look at the pics it seems to me either all the old looking scratches did the damage or that the part is just 1600 hrs old.

 

[J_J]

there was 1600 hrs on it and i was told by the owner that had never happened on the machine. I was the lucky person it happened to. I have solicited info from manufacturer about the service schedule on this tractor. I also sent pics in hope they would determine what happened.

I ran a car rental business for 4 years. I understand rental. There are two sides to this. 1- i abused the equipment or 2- it was wear and tear

There has to be some good faith between people. Besides when I look at the pics it seems to me either all the old looking scratches did the damage or that the part is just 1600 hrs old.

What I meant was, how many hours had you been using the BH, before it broke. Just started using it, several hours, or 6 to 8 hours. Based on the hour meter, they can tell how much work was done, or that the engine was running. Look for any rust they may have painted over.

 

[greenmule]

Nediver,thought you said you signed something saying you would be responsible to fix anything that broke?? I f you did,than you ain't got a real strudy leg to stand on.

Yeah understand the wear and tear stuff,[you can tell I do from my other posts in this thread,]but I also said in my opinion the contract was the binding legal thing.

Are all contracts like that? I have never rented a piece of heavy equipement. But if thats the case,if the alternator went out,you'd be responsible to buy a new one for it!

 

[CDsdad]

Make them make you pay, if you believe it was wear and tear. I wouldn't pay them anything and would stop payment on the rental if it wasn't a cash transaction.

 

[nediver]

Nediver,thought you said you signed something saying you would be responsible to fix anything that broke?? I f you did,than you ain't got a real strudy leg to stand on.

Yeah understand the wear and tear stuff,[you can tell I do from my other posts in this thread,]but I also said in my opinion the contract was the binding legal thing.

Are all contracts like that? I have never rented a piece of heavy equipement. But if thats the case,if the alternator went out,you'd be responsible to buy a new one for it!

the wording is touchy because in one part it makes it seem that if anything breaks its your fault. also when i spoke with owner he said to me, "its a machine and things break it is what it is" i was infuriated. There is a part where it says that I am repsponsible for everything except wear and tear. All, rental contracts are the same or pretty close...but not every rental company or experience.

 

[horse7]

This sort of thing is why I always buy the "insurance" they offer. If anything happens it isn't my fault no matter what-- and rental equipment has the snot beat out of it by some people, other people use the rentals as a learning experience about equipment limits before babying their own tools, although many people are at least reasonable although not particularly careful since it is a rental.

I would never accept a contract that said I had to potentially pay damages unless it was very clear exactly what that means and was an acceptable risk in my opinion.

A friend bought a couple of ASVs that were former rentals, at the time he bought the hook line and sinker about rental companies maintaining their equipment etc etc etc.. Got a good price then had to spend all the savings on fixing the broken welds and worn out parts... plus his own labor. The ASV manual says don't do certain things, well, renters don't care or just don't know (that is how many of the weldments were cracked).

Which brings up an interesting point, did they tell you how to use this tool, or just say here's the key, these levers do this or that, and expect the user to know the limits? No rental place has ever told me anything other than how to run the tools, although I have never rented a hoe or lift or anything like that (maybe they don't care since I always buy the insurance!).

 

[greenmule]

OK,well maybe it did say wear and tear,so maybe you do have a good leg to stand on after all,

 

[workinallthetime]

Just a thought but when that thing blew didint it dump a bunch of hydro fluid all over the place? Tell them your are considering reporting them to the EPA for allowing equipment to be rented out that had obvious issues and now you have contaminated soil to deal with.

 

[Travelover]

This sort of thing is why I always buy the "insurance" they offer. If anything happens it isn't my fault no matter what-- and rental equipment has the snot beat out of it by some people, other people use the rentals as a learning experience about equipment limits before babying their own tools, although many people are at least reasonable although not particularly careful since it is a rental.

.....<snip>......

The rental place I used to work at started with an optional 5% surcharge damage waiver. Most people took it and it was extremely profitable. The difference between customer claims of those that bought it and those that didn't were this; If you bought it, we never charged for damage, even if abusive. If no damage waiver, we almost never charged unless flagrantly abusive. Abuse is generally hard to prove and claiming it generated bad will.

I noticed that the damage waiver is mandatory now.

And it is true that rental equipment has a hard life. People are in a hurry because they are against a clock and they are inexperienced with the equipment.

 

[radioman]

Looks like a lawyer is needed to reread the contract he signed to be on the safe side. If he get a lawyer and if they are smart, they would hire a hydraulic expert to take a look a look and make an report. Only then they can decide which way to go before he even think of contact his homeowners insurance.

 

[IH3444]

Worst case is the part should be pro rated for the 1600 hours. If it were a new machine, you may be liabel for the full amount, depending on the contract signed. A machine with 1600 hours has a certain amount of already existing metal fatigue, and seal fatigue (if it were leaking). Hence you shouldn't be charged fully for a new cylinder. The cylinder end was under designed in my "expert" opinon. Plus this is not a prototype machine. These have been produced, and tested, so the manufacturer of the hoe should be liabel also for it's replacement cost. Another point is that you most likely felt they wouldn't rent it to you if you didn't sign the contract for machine breakage. Once again, the rental company back you into a corner to sign the contract. No contract for breakage, no hoe to use. Are you getting any help at all on this from the rental place?

Wayne Hydraulics....what is the average life of a quality cylinder?