Help! I need legal advice re: easements

[Bob_Skurka]

</font><font color="blueclass=small">( How come he didn't know where his property lines were? Everytime I've been involved in selling/buying real eastate the banks REQUIRED a survey to be performed. Is this just a regional thing? )</font>

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I paid cash for the land, no bank involved so no new survey was required. All along I knew where the corners were because the original survey stakes are there there. I have the plat of survey confirming the original stakes, etc.

The guy simply didn't know where HIS property lines were and the fact that his driveway does not hit the road at a right angle, skewed where he thought his property line was. At the road, his driveway is about 20' from the edge of the property (as defined by the surveryor's stake). But as the drive goes toward his house, the drive gets closer to the property line. So he always took a visual sight along his driveway, assuming totally incorrectly, that running a parallel line about 20' north of his driveway to the back of his property was the "correct" property line. I simply had to use a can of pink spray paint, a bunch of surveyors flags, a laser transit and several knoweldgeable people who know about property lines to prove my neighbor wrong.

I also alerted the property owners association board about the issue of where my property really is, and the fact that he will be requesting approval to build a pool and that the original location was to be on my property. Realistically the dispute should be resolved, we parted on good terms, and I think my willingness to help him find his real boundaries showed him that I am not being a jerk. I think it was a simple honest error. It really came to light because of a small dispute over the placement of a decorative fence, and I think that was, and still is his primary concern. I showed him the fence design (which only runs about 75' of an 1100+' common property line), and we again walked exactly where the fence would be placed, which is NOT even on the property line. When all was done, I don't think he was at all upset with my plans, but I do think he will be re-evaluating his yard plans now that he has a better idea of his property boundaries. So it turned into an education for him, and while he is not thrilled, I don't think he is upset with me.


RE: POOL PERMITS. If they are needed in my area, there is nobody that actually enforces those permits! I don't know of any pool in our neighborhood that got a permit yet, and 40% of the homes have pools.
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[BillG_in_TX]

Bob,

This thread also helped me in discussions with my neighbor.

We share a 2100' property line that is not marked or fenced, having only a survey pin at the road and at the back of the property. Due to trees and elevation changes, it is not possible to see from one pin to the other. I used my GPSr to map the property, and determined that my next-door neighbor had planted his orchard entirely on my property (see attachment). After he had a surveyor friend of his come out to disprove my contention, he agreed instead that I was correct. He then offered to remove the orchard, but we came to a more amicable resolution.

We now have a lease agreement on that piece of property, and he pays me in peaches and blackberries. By the way, my new orchard has a deer fence around it and is irrigated by my neighbor's well. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Now if we can just figure out how to keep the racoons out.

 

[jayhawkRoy]

It may be a regional thing, or not what you think.
The "survey" that my bank required when I purchased my house is merely a walk around to ensure that the property is still there, roughtly as the plat has it laid out -- at least that is what I was told by the bank. It is not a survey done by a surveyor that establishes boundary lines. That type of survey costs 4-5 times the amount that the bank survey cost.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

We have bought a lot of land and never have had to have anything surveyed. Of course we have not dealt with any banks either when buying as it is just between us and our neighbors.

 

[MicroPilot]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( We have bought a lot of land and never have had to have anything surveyed. Of course we have not dealt with any banks either when buying as it is just between us and our neighbors. )</font>

How do you make sure what they are selling, they actually own?

Do you do title searches? What if there are huge liens against the property, or the property is unusable because of some right-of-way.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( </font><font color="blueclass=small">( We have bought a lot of land and never have had to have anything surveyed. Of course we have not dealt with any banks either when buying as it is just between us and our neighbors. )</font>

How do you make sure what they are selling, they actually own?

Do you do title searches? What if there are huge liens against the property, or the property is unusable because of some right-of-way. )</font>


<font color="black"> In my case we used a title company, got title insurance, etc. But since there was no mortgage on the property there was no reason to involve a bank. The title company provides a piece of paper that guarantees ownership, discloses liens, etc. In the case of the property I purchased, there was a lien on it, and I knew about it in advance, at the closing with the title company I provided proof of settlement of the lien and the price I paid to the former owner was reduced by the amount to the lien (again this was all worked out before the closing) but had to be proved at closing for the title to transfer.

Title companies are supposed to provide legal descriptions of easements, liens, covenants, etc, at closing. Sometime you have to ask them to provide those things. It is your job to make sure that you write the office such that you can back out if something is hinky, I always write "subject to approval by my agent" in every offer I make as my little weasel clause that allows me to go back to my lawyer and have him tell me NO. But there has never been need to invoke the clause, because due dillegence prior to extending an offer should answer the questions.

What never ceases to surprise me are people who buy land that has covenants on it and then complain that they didn't know about them, they don't agree with them, they want them changed, or they simply ignore them and then end up in trouble when they violate them. </font>

 

[jayhawkRoy]

I pay for title insurance, even on cash land purchases. That inherently requires a title search to be done. In some places, closing includes an update to the abstract, generally instead of title insurance, to prove your ownership. The abstract provides a complete record of all liens, deed transfers, etc that has been recorded with the Recorder of Deeds in the county. As time goes on, I think you see more title insurance and less abstract-only transactions.

 

[MicroPilot]

Suppose I had wanted to buy you neighbors house and had enough cash to get it outright, wouldn't he have been, before you pointed out the property lines, trying to sell me some land that he didn't actually own?

Was your neighbors property line error fairly obvious if you were looking at a plat for that lot, or would it have taken a surveyor to spot it?

 

[KubotaSteve]

I too have used this thread recently. We bought our lot and the seller needed to include a right of way down the side of our lot to get to 30 acres he owns further back. I made him pay for the surveyor and kept all of the stakes clearly marked and visible. When his farm tractors and trucks were consistently making wide turns on my land, I put up a fence right down the property line to insure that there were no disagreements down the line. Plus this keeps his tractors and trucks from tearing up my yard.
I was wondering what was going on with this situation the other day and was going to ask for an update, but someone beat me to it.
Good luck and keep your chin up.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Suppose I had wanted to buy you neighbors house and had enough cash to get it outright, wouldn't he have been, before you pointed out the property lines, trying to sell me some land that he didn't actually own?

Was your neighbors property line error fairly obvious if you were looking at a plat for that lot, or would it have taken a surveyor to spot it? )</font>


In my eyes, and in the eyes of the neighbor across the road, the property line that is now established is pretty close to what it had been estimated at. In the eyes of my neighbor who owns the house, the property line is way off of what he estimated (about 20' off of his estimate at 100' deep and progressively farther off his estimate as you extend toward the back of his lot).

So to answer your question, if you had tried to buy my neighbor's lot, he might have innocently misrepresented the property line. However, as the buyer, it is your job to know what you are buying. Believing the seller is always a huge mistake regardless of whether you are buying land or a used car. The legal description of the property is pretty much jibberish to most people like me, even the plat of survey doesn't show which trees fall on who's property. Surveyors are typically hired to put little flags along the property lines, but buying property based on what you or a seller "thinks" is a dangerous thing.

Bear in mind, the property line in question runs perpandicular to the road and the neighbor's driveway does not. The neighbor always sighted his version of the property line as running parallel to his driveway but as stated his driveway runs at an angle to the road so the neighbor was mistaken all along. I always contened, and have been proven correct, that the line runs roughly where it is now established.