Help!! Loud Engine knock after changing glowplugs

[CBP Engineer]

Thanks again everyone for the input. Seeing how I just got this tractor, I am in the process of changing out all the fluids and filters to establish a baseline for myself. One question I have is regarding the product SeaFoam. I have read where adding this to the oil is beneficial for many reasons. I would like to get your perspective on this. Also, my manual says to add 4.8 quarts of oil with a filter change. My question is this, to you add the Sea Foam in addition to the 4.8 quarts already in or do you cut back the oil appropriate to the amount of Seafoam ounces added so as not to over-fill?

I will look into the injectors as well being the one cyclinder had quite a bit more soot than the others.

Oldbulldogger, seems like this thread has went off on a tangent about one's faith or lack thereof and other topics that don't answer your question here.

Regarding Seafoam, it is a well known product for cleaning combustion chambers, which is really the issue that you have here. You can add it to the oil, but cut back the volume of oil by the same volume of Seafoam that you add to the crankcase when changing the oil. Or if the crankcase is not full, you can add seafoam to bring it up to the full mark, but don't overfill. However, adding it to the oil will not clean out the combustion chamber, which seems to be the problem here.

I've used Seafoam on several vehicles and small engines. The basic process is to warm the engine up to operating temperature and introduce it into the carberator/throttle body, usually by sucking it through a vacuum line. The engine should be running at slightly above idle. It will bog the engine down and may stall it. The volume you add depends on engine size. I would say about half a pint would be fine for your tractor. After adding it, shut the tractor down and let it sit for 15 minutes to half and hour. This will give time for the Seafoam to work on loosening up the carbon. Did I tell you to move the tractor out of your shed before doing this? Please do so, because when you start it up again, it will pour out the white smoke. You will fog out the neighbors if you have any. Hop on the tractor and put it in high gear/range and run it up and down the driveway, doing stops and starts and working the throttle up and down. This process is an "Italian Tuneup" if you understand that phrase. Basically, you want to put the engine under load and run it at high rpm's to help blow out the loosened up carbon.

Now, how do you apply this to your tractor, since you don't have a carb? You can get Seafoam in a aerosol form, called Deep Creep. Without looking at my tractor, probably the best place to spray it in would be after the air cleaner housing. The closer you can get it to the intake, the better, since some of the spray will get on the tubing of the intake system. The aerosol form will help to atomize the Seafoam and keep you from flooding the engine.

You don't want to add too much at one time. The worst case is you could hydrolock the engine and bend a connecting rod. However, this probably wouldn't happen unless you poured liquid directly into the intake manifold.

There are many products that you can use to clean the combustion chamber. You can use these with the process described above. Maybe one of the best is plain old water. Put some in an old windex of other spray bottle and set it on spray, not stream, and spray into the intake. The water will turn into steam inside of the combustion chamber and steam clean the inside of the engine. If you ever worked on an engine that had a head gasket that leaked anti-freeze into the cylinder, you would notice the top of the piston is clean. At least that was my experience when working on my brother's Nova many years ago.

The thing to remember with this process is to start with small squirts of liquid and increase slowly, listening for a change in the engine tone. It may bog down slightly, which is fine.

This will clean the combustion chamber, but it may be only attacking the symptoms and not solving the root problem. You may have carbon buildup simply from many hours of operation or it could be an injector issue, since one cylinder seemed to be worse. You received some good advice previously. If you are concerned, my advice would be to pull the injectors and have a shop test them. If one is not functioning properly, the test will verify this. If the tractor seems to be running fine, don't worry about it. Save a few sheckles and throw them into the offering plate instead.

These are good working tractors, quite well built. Keep up the maintenance and get to know your tractor. A little smoke on startup is normal, as well as under load. Some additive to the fuel might not be a bad idea, since diesel fuel composition has changed since these tractors were built. There are concerns that the Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) has less lubricity then the diesel fuel of years ago. Here is a site I like to read to get information on fuel and oil additives. Bobistheoilguy.com

Have fun with your tractor. :thumbsup:

 

[Jerry/MT]

Burning a hole in a piston from an injector leak, or missing tip, is because of a jet off fuel rather than the designed spray pattern. it's a common problem, but not the problem being discussed in this thread. The correct spray pattern is very important for proper combustion.

Your theory that 900 degrees is enough to warm an engine misses the point. Its not the instantaneous temperature the combustion chamber reaches, it's the BTUs delivered to the block. Diesels have, whether you like it or not, a lot of excess air pumping through them all the time at light loads or while idling. This makes them hard to warm up in cold weather while idling. And they are not likely to have glowing carbon standing by at cold startup to prematurely fire the fuel that isn't even there yet, unless there is some kind of serious malfunction.

Please, no need to argue a silly point. Old bulldogger simply asked why it would be knocking at cold startup, at 25 degrees. All BEFORE it had time to warm up.

Respectfully, you're confusing the warm up arguement, whick I noted is correct (and by the way is a red herring since the OP didn't make an issue of this), with the possibility of early ignition due to carbon build up.

The "theory" of high compression gas temperatures is what makes diesels run and I merely pointed out that gas tempertures in the cylinder are very high and could cause carbon hot spots that triggered a knock. Your response is to simply dismiss the issue by bringing up the engine warm up issue.
There are many people who have experience with diesel engines here and it's this broad eperience that makes these forums so useful. Failure modes are not always neat tidy occurances that can be easily diagnosed so stating your case and letting some rational discussion occur allows every one a chance to think through the possibilities. We can all learn in these forums but when we take a hard stance and close our minds most people just tune you out.
You can disagree with me if you want but I ran the calc's to get a handle on the peak gas temps. I'm not just waving my arms.

The object here is not to be right but to help the OP solve his problem. Many points of view help that process. Defending a preoncieved position doesn't.

 

[OldBulldogger]

Thanks for all the continued input from everyone. I appreciate all the information and conversation here. Thanks CBP Engineer for answering my question about Seafoam too. The explanation was helpful and based on all the advice listed, I will be looking into carbon issue and the injectors sometime soon.

As a point of clarification for all, I just bought this tractor and have only owned it about three weeks total. I have never owned a diesel before so this is all new. It is a 1989 model Ford 1720 and is 22 years old. There were two prior owners. Both owned and operated it in Michigan. The person I bought it from owned it the last twelve years.

He is the one who used ether from time to time and ONLY when he had to use the tractor in the winter. He said normally he used his bigger tractor in the winter for plowing so he ONLY OCCASIONALLY used this one. ONLY if it didn't start on its own would he then use ether. He is a retired farmer and he and his wife go south for 8 weeks each winter so most of the winter they were gone anyway so again, this did not see a lot of winter use.

It was cold the day I picked it up - below 20 degrees and when we went to start it, it did not fire right away so he used it then, barely a whisper and out at the end of the air intake so it still had to pass through the air filter. Now I am not trying to defend him at all, as I understand the harmful effects of ether, I am just giving everyone here the background. He thought it was a relay problem and put a new one in but it did not correct the problem.

"RASPY", thanks for the input and useful information too. This is all good knowledge. Just to be clear here, I have not been deliberately hurting my engine because the facts are, I have only owned this tractor for three weeks. I recognized the need to correct the cold start up problem especially since I live in MN and will be using it blow snow which is why I changed the glowplugs out. I am glad I did too as it starts right up now and that problem is solved and - no more ether use! The loud knock/tapping only started right after the plugs were changed and right after I started it up for the first time - about 5 minutes later while it was idling and warming up. (odd to say the least) As mentioned earlier in the post, from the time I first heard it, I never ran it for more than a few minutes at a time while I tried to diagnos the problem. It eventually cleared itself up after revving it all the way up and down several times in the end. Total run time on the noise from start to finish was maybe 7-10 minutes. I was just concerned given how loud it was and the thought that something like a rod bearing or other was giving out. Since I am not a professional mechanic, I turned to the forum.

Seems the forum got a little off track when I mentioned I said a prayer hoping that the noise was something minor, low cost, or would just go away before firing it up so let's put this one to rest so we can all just focus on tractors.

As far as the praying goes, if you have a relationship with the Man upstairs, He already knows your thoughts, your concerns, joys, and fears. He already knows all our days anyway - from before we were born to well after we are gone. After all, He is the Maker. And, He already knew what I was thinking about long before I asked it so throwing up a little prayer about the tractor was no surprise to Him. I let Him know my thoughts all week long and not just on Sunday mornings for an hour. Yes, I know He has bigger fish to fry - especially over in Japan, and this is just a small request. As for myself, I am a father of 4 - 2 boys, 2 girls, one is already graduated college and the youngest in 8th grade. I love them all unconditionally - no matter what (and no, they are not perfect - just your typical kids). Because we talk about everything with our kids, there is nothing they couldn't ask me about that I would find myself too busy to listen too. Yes, some matters are smaller, some bigger - but all are important to them and I listen just the same. Having been an EMT in a small rural community for over 8 years and assisting in well over 600 medical/trauma emergencies, I know well the value of life and the power of prayer.

So to the point about me praying over the tractor noise - "RASPY" - yes, in the grand scheme of life, it is something minor, however, I try not to prejudge what the Man upstairs thinks is important or not. I could be wrong... however, I am willing to bet in todays world, He is just glad to hear from one of His kids. And so if He'll have me, someday when I get to there, I'll make it a point to ask Him about that.

In the meantime, I just thank the good Lord for two good hands and a good set of wrenches to work with and the smarts to turn to Tractorbynet.com and learn as much as I can from all you fine folks out there on how to maintain my new tractor. :thumbsup:

 

[CBP Engineer]

Oldbulldogger - Thanks for getting back to us. Glad my information could help you out. I just purchased my 1320 a little over a year ago and it is about the same age as yours.. So I'm learning about these little tractors myself. One thing I learned the hard way, the glow plug light may stay on for a much longer time than needed. 4 to 5 seconds is all the longer the glow plugs need to heat up in temps 40 F and above. I'll hold mine for up to 15 seconds if it is below freezing. My glow plug indicator light started staying on for long periods, up to 40 seconds or more. I just held the the switch on until it went off. Ended up burning out the glow plugs that were about a year old.

That was an expensive lesson. So just a tip to you since you are a new owner with a similar tractor. Count the seconds that you hold the switch on. Also, if you don't have a block heater, that would be a good thing to install on your tractor. Since the anti-freeze may not have been changed lately, it would be a good combination of jobs to do at one time. Your tractor will start much easier and quieter if you can plug it in for an hour or two before you need to use it. The block heater shouldn't be too bad of a job to do. The freeze plug that you will need to knock out should be on the left hand side of the tractor. You can do a search on the forums, I know this topic has been discussed. But don't be afraid to come back and ask a question.

Thanks for sharing your testimony. Myself and I'm sure others can appreciate and relate to it. Have a good one.

 

[barbqranch]

If you do get a block heater, make a habit of running the extension cord through the steering wheel, so you can't drive off with it still plugged in.

 

[Raspy]

Seems the forum got a little off track when I mentioned I said a prayer hoping that the noise was something minor, low cost, or would just go away before firing it up so let's put this one to rest so we can all just focus on tractors.

As far as the praying goes, if you have a relationship with the Man upstairs, He already knows your thoughts, your concerns, joys, and fears. He already knows all our days anyway - from before we were born to well after we are gone. After all, He is the Maker. And, He already knew what I was thinking about long before I asked it so throwing up a little prayer about the tractor was no surprise to Him. I let Him know my thoughts all week long and not just on Sunday mornings for an hour. Yes, I know He has bigger fish to fry - especially over in Japan, and this is just a small request. As for myself, I am a father of 4 - 2 boys, 2 girls, one is already graduated college and the youngest in 8th grade. I love them all unconditionally - no matter what (and no, they are not perfect - just your typical kids). Because we talk about everything with our kids, there is nothing they couldn't ask me about that I would find myself too busy to listen too. Yes, some matters are smaller, some bigger - but all are important to them and I listen just the same. Having been an EMT in a small rural community for over 8 years and assisting in well over 600 medical/trauma emergencies, I know well the value of life and the power of prayer.

So to the point about me praying over the tractor noise - "RASPY" - yes, in the grand scheme of life, it is something minor, however, I try not to prejudge what the Man upstairs thinks is important or not. I could be wrong... however, I am willing to bet in todays world, He is just glad to hear from one of His kids. And so if He'll have me, someday when I get to there, I'll make it a point to ask Him about that.

In the meantime, I just thank the good Lord for two good hands and a good set of wrenches to work with and the smarts to turn to Tractorbynet.com and learn as much as I can from all you fine folks out there on how to maintain my new tractor. :thumbsup:

I want to thank you for your thoughtful response and assure you I meant no disrespect. Just curious. I'm also grateful for two good hands, a set of wrenches, and the ability to use them.

This is probably not the right forum for further thoughts on this matter, but I have a couple of questions, so here goes, and you can disregard if you'd like.

In your response you clarified why you prayed about your tractor problem and related it to being available for your kids and their questions. God and man, parents and kids. You agreed that "He" has more important things to do, like "Japan", and that is why I'm asking you this......Why did he allow or cause Japans problems in the first place? And since he did, what value is there in praying for help there?

You could really enlighten me on this and I hope any response is more thorough than just how mysterious "his" ways are. In the end, faith is just that, faith. But faith is often supported by facts or documents or deeds or assumptions. Many of which mean something to some and not to others.

If this is too inappropriate for this forum, sorry, a PM would also work. The reason I bring it up here is that you brought it up and made a point of it and expanded on your reasons. You point out that you like to stay in touch with him and have seen the power, while acknowledging that he is all powerful and yet busy with bigger issues. If he is busy, as you say, would it not be more appropriate to leave him alone while you solve your problems? How important must a problem be before it becomes worth mentioning? If it is just as a parent/child relationship, and I do not believe it is, then I can see your point. But a parent/child relationship is nothing like a creator/universe relationship.

For all I know, He fixed your tractor. A potentially complex, expensive and troublesome problem became a simple one that went away easily. Did He intervene?

You sound like a fine man that has given your faith a lot of thought, and live it. Thanks for your insight.

By the way, how's your tractor running? Are you having fun with it?

 

[Transit]

Raspy, why is it that the only way anyone can understand events is that there is some master mind behind the seen pulling the strings? Do you really believe in magic?

 

[Raspy]

Raspy, why is it that the only way anyone can understand events is that there is some master mind behind the seen pulling the strings? Do you really believe in magic?

Actually, I don't believe in magic. That's why I question those that claim divine intervention helped them, or those that speak of, worship and love, an all knowing being that allows so much suffering. Or those that try to make god in their own image.

Some folks are very sincere and have thought their positions out well. They are the ones to ask.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming. :laughing:

 

[OldBulldogger]

Well it has been some time since this posting started and I would like to update everyone. My Ford 1720 is still running just fine and has had no subsequent issues. I have worked it under load since then on several projects including some grading and bucket work and also digging a number of holes with a PHD.

As you read, it originally developed a loud knocking noise shortly after changing the glowplugs which I believe were the originals from when it was produced in 1989. I had replaced the plugs and the problem immediately developed within minutes of firing up the engine. Please re-read the original posts to further track the initial problem and subsequent conclusion. To date, I have had no further issues and all seems well.

THANK THE LORD! :thumbsup:

 

[JC-jetro]

Well it has been some time since this posting started and I would like to update everyone. My Ford 1720 is still running just fine and has had no subsequent issues. I have worked it under load since then on several projects including some grading and bucket work and also digging a number of holes with a PHD.

As you read, it originally developed a loud knocking noise shortly after changing the glowplugs which I believe were the originals from when it was produced in 1989. I had replaced the plugs and the problem immediately developed within minutes of firing up the engine. Please re-read the original posts to further track the initial problem and subsequent conclusion. To date, I have had no further issues and all seems well.

THANK THE LORD! :thumbsup:

Sorry for your misfortune and happy that things looks okay now. I have taken my glow plugs for inspection as I never had any issue with them. I'm just curious if you got something in to combustion chamber thru the glow plug hole thus the engine knock noise and am wondering if the object got chewed out and out thru you exhaust port. I have not kept up with this thread and my suggestion here might have been talked about. i just can not see how taking the plug out can cause a knock unless the tip of the glow plug was busted or had real heavy rock like deposit on it that broke off during removal where caused the knocking. just imagine if you introduce a piece of pebble or small screw in thru glow plug hole.

JC,