Help! Selecting generator....

/ Help! Selecting generator.... #21  
Respectfully, I think your Dad's either mistaken or he's got some tuning-up to do on that generator. The 20kW generator I'm looking at will only draw 2.3 gallons of propane an hour at full load and about 1.5 gallons per hour at half load. So, at moderate load and usage levels, a 500 gallon propane tank should be good for at least a month (assuming about six hours a day at full load, and another six hours at minimal load).

Interestingly, at full load with this 20kW generator, the fuel cost per kilowatt-hour is only about $0.14. That's about the same that I pay the utility company. Of course, if you amortize the cost of the generator over it's lifespan, that cost goes way up, but it's an interesting number nonetheless.
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #22  
Thanks Mahlers! I thought his consumption was too high also, and your numbers sound reasonable. I have thinking about a standby generator with LP since I get too many hurricanes, and when my Dad told me how much his generator consumed it scared me away from LP. I will have to talk to him again Sunday and verifiy his numbers.

Thanks for the response, it set me at ease about LP.


Joe
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #23  
According to this wattage worksheet that I have in front of me , you will need a 6500 watt cont./8500watt surge generator. I had the same setup before I upgraded. My generator was a 6500 watt Onan. John
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #24  
I have a 330 foot well, septic tank pump, 2 refrigerators, freezer, electric hot water and heat pump. (I don't run the heat pump, but use a fire place during power outages) I bought an 8000 watt continuous and 10000 watt surge generator. I think this is a pretty good size for your purposes. You did not say how deep your well is. This make a big difference. Starting the well has been my biggest problem. I actaully had to upgrade the wire size after 9 years because it would not start during Isabell.

A point that nobody has made yet, fuel consumption. A bigger generator will use more gas. Unless your are running your well (which will only run for a few minutes) and your hot water heater, you will probably be very lightly loaded. I tend to turn on one big load at a time using the circuit breakers. We did fine for 7 days during Isabel. Right now you want to ride through the short outages, but believe me when you get a long one, you will want that power. I have also found that to keep a refrigator cold you have to run it about 12 out of 24 hours. These means about 10 gallons a day of gasoline. Also keep spare oil, oil filters, spark plugs and air filters in stock. You cannot get these during a power outage. Also have a way to pump gas out of your vehicles and fill up if an outage is coming. You should also run the generator about every two weeks with a load (I use an electric heater) to keep the windings from absorbing moisture and the engine operational. If you don't plan to do this, then don't waste your money. Sorry for the lecture, but I have seen money wasted on generators by people who did not follow the above advice. One friend had a generator run for four hours and then die from moisture in the windings. It had not been run for 2 years. Good luck.
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #25  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I have also found that to keep a refrigator cold you have to run it about 12 out of 24 hours. )</font>
I was luckier, I only ran my refrigerator for about 4 hours a day and the ice cubes didn't even sweat!
I was using my 4K Onan in my motorhome and used about $50 of gas over the 4 1/2 days I was without power. I did not let it run while sleeping. At that rate, a monthly bill would be outrageous. John
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #26  
Might check that setup.. he may have a huge leak.

Soundguy
 
/ Help! Selecting generator....
  • Thread Starter
#27  
<font color="blue">I have a 330 foot well, septic tank pump, 2 refrigerators, freezer, electric hot water and heat pump. (I don't run the heat pump, but use a fire place during power outages) I bought an 8000 watt continuous and 10000 watt surge generator. I think this is a pretty good size for your purposes. You did not say how deep your well is. This make a big difference. Starting the well has been my biggest problem. I actaully had to upgrade the wire size after 9 years because it would not start during Isabell. </font>

Thanks Bob, Looks like our set up is similar. Our well actually is around 155 feet deep and we have a Gould 3/4HP 230V pump, I could not find any specs (on web page) concerning the starting load. Another point I failed to mention is that we have a water filtration system tied in to our holding tank due to the high iron content of the ground water and an additional tank that holds a solution that is intermittently pumped to maintain the proper pH balance of the water. I would imagine that I would want to keep these operational during an outtage also, not sure of the load here either.

After looking at the specs of our hot water heater it looks like it is a dual element (80 gallon) model so the load is rated at 4500W upper and 4500W lower but the tag says 4500W total, wouldnt these values be added up to 9000W?

Looks like by these figures that I may be approaching a 10K generator, really wanted to keep it at 7500W if possible. That leads us back to load management. I dont know if I understood this correctly but with the transfer switch I can just select the circuit I wish to run at will? It looks like I could keep the load below 7500 at any given time. Is there any other concerns? Like do any of these pumps lose their prime if they are toggled off and on intermittently? If I run the hot water heater for a period of time how long will that water maintain the temperature, enough to run the shower for a period of time? I guess with a little effort one could survive with the basics available when needed. Any comments are appreciated. John /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #28  
<font color="red"> After looking at the specs of our hot water heater it looks like it is a dual element (80 gallon) model so the load is rated at 4500W upper and 4500W lower but the tag says 4500W total, wouldnt these values be added up to 9000W?</font>

Most water heaters, yours included, include an internal thermostat that will apply power to only one element at a time. Therefore, while there are two elements, the total load is only one element.

<font color="red"> That leads us back to load management. I dont know if I understood this correctly but with the transfer switch I can just select the circuit I wish to run at will? </font>

The transfer switch allows you to select where the power comes from--your generator or the utility grid--and locks out the non-selected source.

Some transfer switches include an additional element--circuit breakers for loads. For a transfer switch which has only the single function of transfer you use an existing or new circuit box with breakers for the loads. In either case, you can use the breakers after the transfer switch to control which loads are active.
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #29  
stonebase,

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner - I run the furnace (forced hot air) with NO problems. There is a drawdown when it kicks on, but not enough to cause any problems.

Doug
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #30  
Lets look at Amps for a minute here. The generator I have only has a 30amp 220 twist lock plug on it. So at best I can only get 30amps max from the generator. It's a B/S 5500 continuous generator. How many amps will things be?

6amps for the well pump (mine anyway)
The septic pump?? Don't have one but you should know. Maybe 5 amps
Furnace you won't use.....
Fridge and freezer are big draws. You'll have to alternate running those between each other
The rest of the stuff is little on power use.
Microwave??? Jeez it's a hog for power too

A 50amp 220 plug will do you fine but that steps you up to a 7500 watt generator. My vote is at least 7500 watt
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #31  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Might check that setup.. he may have a huge leak.
)</font>
He, meaning my generator?
The generator info states almost 1 gal/hour with a good load on it, so I wasn't surprised how much it used. The generator was apparently a replacement in the motorhome, but it's much older than the MH. It runs off the gasoline from the MH tank. John
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #32  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( The generator I have only has a 30amp 220 twist lock plug on it. So at best I can only get 30amps max from the generator. It's a B/S 5500 continuous generator )</font>

Even thought it has the 30a twistlock plg.. a 550 cont watt genny is only going to kick out 25a at rated load. You would only get 30a if it will do 6600 surge..

Soundguy
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #33  
Naa.. the propane one that was using hundreds of dollars of lp gas.

Soundguy
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #34  
Thanks John, my damage wasn't too bad in a monitary sense. Only about $300 in damage cash value. Lost a bunch of trees though. Am going to post some pics in a seperate thread. I was unaware of any bad press the Generac's had gotten. I guess I should do a search.

For the generator fuel consumption that everyone is talking about, this is why I'm looking at propane. I can buy propane down here for between 50 cents and 70 cents per pound. My 100 lb propane tanks hold roughly 25 gallons, which means each 100 lb tank should power the 13kW Honda machine I'm looking at for three days running it eight hours per day. It will be easier to fill and store several large propane bottles several weeks before a storm, than it will be to buy 100 gallons of gasoline a week before a storm. Even then, I have what I assume is a 200 lb propane tank that I've never filled before, because transporting the 100 lb tanks is alot easier.
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #35  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( It will be easier to fill and store several large propane bottles several weeks before a storm, than it will be to buy 100 gallons of gasoline a week before a storm. )</font>
I would think you could get a price break by having a delivery to the 200# tank, and then wouldn't need storage room for a bunch of 100's. For that matter, you can rent a huge propane tank for very little per year, and it may fair a storm better than the much lighter 100 pounders.
I'm glad your damages were not so serious. The trees are a real shame though as they certainly were more valuable. John
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #36  
Like all the other guys from Florida, my wife and I have had this discussion in the last 10 days without power (we got it back at 5 PM today - Monday). What I did for this storm was to bring the motor home over from the commercial property where I normally park it and put it across the top of the driveway, partly to block the storm, but primarily because I knew we'd need the power.

It has an Onan 4K watt generator that produces 110V power (only) @ 1800 RPM. With it, I powered the motor home itself (TV, a couple of lights, 12V appliances, a fan, etc), two full size refrigerators, numerous chargers (laptop computers, cell phones, lanterns, etc), an entertainment complex (large TV, VCR, DVD player), a couple of interior lamps and another fan, and a desktop computer. I could also run a powerful microwave or my toaster if I unplugged one of the refrigerators. I used 10 guage extension cords to get into the house from the coach, then 12 or 14 guage cords from there to various power strips. I didn't try to run through the panel; I just unplugged the appliances and lamps I wanted and plugged them into the extensions. We shut it down at bedtime and used flashlights and rechargeable lanterns, so it ran about 16 to 18 hours per day for 10 days with no problems.

I've lived in Florida for 32 years, and the longest we were without power previously was for about 1-1/2 days during Hurricane David in 1979. Our only other power outages were due to minor storms or car accidents knocking over a pole, and the longest was maybe 4 to 6 hours. Even those happened infrequently, maybe once every 2 or 3 years.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that up until now, we've never felt it was worth it to even have a portable standby generator, let alone a serious whole-house system. But, our thinking is changing a bit after this storm.

Not that we expect it to happen again anytime in the next 32 years, but a couple of factors enter in. First of all, what Jared said about running the AC to keep the house dry is absolutely true. After 10 days without power, our house frankly stunk, mostly from the damp, musty conditions. And, although it might be more information than anyone cares to know, when you sleep during very hot nights with no moving air and no AC, you sweat, the bed gets damp, and it doesn't dry out the next day -- and it's tough to do a laundry without power if you aren't set up for it. We toughed it out for 10 days and then I told my wife to just throw the danged sheets away.

Next, we're not getting any younger, it's harder to face the discomfort, and we're moving to a more rural area where the outages are more frequent and last longer, and we're going to have to run a pump instead of the city water system we have now. So, we're thinking seriously about a whole house system for our new house. Our decision may have been influenced by our back yard neighbor, the owner of an electrical contracting business, who ran his whole house system the entire 10 days, powering even his yard lights, pool circulating pump, pool light, air conditioning, water heater and the whole shebang. He also had full TV and internet the whole time because he has a satellite system. It was hard to lay in bed at night and see his whole house ablaze with lights...I don't know how big his unit is, but I'm thinking the easiest way to make the decision on size is just to make it big enough to run everything.

My wife asked what it might cost, and I said I didn't have a clue. Just to throw out a number, I said, "$20,000." She didn't blink an eye; she just said, "Well, it's all about priorities, right? That's about the cost of a new car. If we put off buying a car for a few years, we could have the whole house system."

So, what I want is a system big enough that I don't have to manage it. I'll do a search on the TBN archives and also Google; this subject has been discussed a lot. I'll likely want an automatic switch so it will come on even when we're not home; maybe with a 5 minute time delay so it won't come on with every brown-out.

I suspect it will be propane for the reasons already stated; the fuel lasts the longest and we'll have plenty of it around, anyway. My second choice would be diesel because it holds up better than gasoline, I can use the fuel for the tractor, and I surely don't want to have a large gasoline tank on the property -- LP Gas doesn't scare me 1/10th as much as gasoline.

On the subject of LP gas efficiency, it's about 10% less efficient than gasoline when used to fuel an engine. JoeR's Dad mentioned that he had a 500 lb. propane tank. JoeR translated that to a price per gallon, not per pound. Propane weighs 4.2 pounds per gallon, so that 500 lb. tank holds about 119 gallons when it is completely full. To use it all in 3 days would be about 40 gallons per day, and converting it to gasoline efficiency, that would be the equivalent of about 35 gallons of gasoline per day, or about 1-1/2 gallon per hour. I think that's a lot, even for a 15 KW generator. I suspect that the tank was not quite full or the 3 days might have been 3-1/2 days or some other combination that would bring it down into the realm of 1 gallon per hour or less, which is what I would expect. At that point, it would be less expensive than gasoline because propane is much lower cost per gallon, and comparable to the cost of off-road diesel delivered in bulk.

The other advantages of a propane system are longer engine life, less carbon and sludge build-up in the engine, less polution and much less chance of problems due to moisture in the fuel, etc. There is also less chance of damage to a fuel spill, but a slight more risk with a leak, although completely manageable, especially if the local State LP Gas Bureau Disaster Inspector lives in the same town and is a friend /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif.

So, it looks like a whole-house system for us. All I have to do is determine the proper size, plumb it and have it wired properly, and I can cross that particular worry off my list for the future.
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #37  
Be careful transporting 100# cylinders yourself. The D.O.T. limit in a closed vehicle is 90 pounds. You can transport a 100# cylinder in the back of a pickup, but by law, it's supposed to be transported upright, which is tough to do in the typical pickup or trailer unless you havea pipe rack or ladder rack where the tank can be fastened upright. The limit the D.O.T. looks for is 200# before you have to placard the vehicle and have shipping papers, so the most you can haul, even in an open vehicle, is 2 - 100# cylinders.

When you tranport the cylinders to a dispenser, you'll most likely pay a much higher rate than a bulk supplier would charge. For example, when I had my propane dispensing station, I charged $12 to fill a 20# grill tank. That's a litle more than $2.50 per gallon. We charged less for larger tanks and motor home fills, but it was still around $2.25 per gallon. If you have the propane company install a tank at your house and fill it from a bobtail truck, it will be much less. At the time I closed my company, over two years ago, the bulk cost was less than $1.00 per gallon. I've heard of some prices around $1.50 per gallon this year, which would also mean that my price would be up around $3 per gallon to fill your 100# cylinder. It's always cheaper to have bulk delivery than to get it filled yourself.

I plan to have at least a 300 gallon tank, which means at maximum use I should get 10 days or more out of it. My friend the LP Gas inspector is looking for a tank for me now; he has a 1,000 gallon tank in his yard, complete with a dispenser pump for filling his motor home and small cylinders for his mosquito magnets. He picked it up for a song when a roofing company was going out of business; I'm supposed to get the next bargain tank. I have seen a 1000 gallong tank/dispenser setup advertised as cheap as $3,500, but I don't expect to pay that much.

I had a 275 gallon tank buried at my last house; the gas company charged me a small lease fee, I think around $5/month, but I had to pay their $700 charge to dig the hole and have it buried. They also plumbed the tank to the house for free, and gave me 10' of interior plumbing for each appliance I had installed. I had a gas dryer, water heater and kitchen stove all within the 30', so the plumbing was free.

If the gas company owns the tank, they are the only ones who can fill it. If you own your own tank, any gas company can fill it.
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #38  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Like all the other guys from Florida, my wife and I have had this discussion in the last 10 days without power (we got it back at 5 PM today - Monday). What I did for this storm was to bring the motor home over from the commercial property where I normally park it and put it across the top of the driveway, partly to block the storm, but primarily because I knew we'd need the power)</font>
Hey Don. Shoppintractors Don and I were just wondering what happened to you. I had a momentary lapse again and had forgotten that you also live in Florida (it's the Okee that does it) but Don reminded me it's Okeechobee.
Man my 5 days was enough time to do without, and I'm sure glad I had not yet sold my motorhome with the 4K Onan. Sure saved a lot of freezer goods at my house and my mom's and a neighbor's. I'm glad you're all okay and I sure hope we don't get any more of these storms for a long time. Most of Florida is going to most likely be in fairly good shape with Ivan, but I sure feel bad for all those who will suffer it's wrath. John
EDIT: one note on 100# cylinders. I had one filled about a month ago at $60. Not cheap. John
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #39  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( might cost, and I said I didn't have a clue. Just to throw out a number, I said, "$20,000." )</font>

I think you are good to go.. if she didn't blink at 20k. I think you should be able to pick up a big standy gennt for less.. even with switchbox and install.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I think that's a lot, even for a 15 KW generator. I suspect that the tank was not quite full or the 3 days might have been 3-1/2 days or some other combination that would bring it down into the realm of 1 gallon per hour or less,)</font>

I agree... My tractor running at pto rpm doesn't burn 1.5 gph either... I think there may have been a leak in thetank.. or a bad gauge.. etc..

Soundguy
 
/ Help! Selecting generator.... #40  
And it's not just beneficial keeping it dry for comfort either. Take a look at what it would cost to replace all the drywall and fungi infested wood in your house should you ever lose power for a long time, like three weeks or a month. Replacing all the mold damaged material would make that $20k look like a bargain, and the mold disclosure you would have to supply upon sale of your home would drive the price of the house down alot, and drive potential buyers elsewhere. Mold is the primary reason I'm looking to run the central A/C. I realize the problem can be overblown, but really, the $5k I'm hoping to spend is a far cry less than $50k for mold remediation and the hit on sales price the house will take.
 

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