Help settle an argument: batteries

[apewrangler]

My dad has a JD 4230 and an IH 454. They both use 2x6V batteries that never last long, just don't have enough juice in the winter, and are getting increasingly harder to find.

I've tried to talk him into just using a single 12v battery for each tractor that will last longer and be much easier to come by, but he insists that buying a new 6v battery or two every year is the best way. Does father know best?

 

[RickB]

The 454 could easily start with a high CCA 12 volt battery. The Deere can be converted to two 12 volt group 31 batteries by replacing and reconfiguring the cables. He will think he has a new tractor.

Edit. I see you are in Mississippi. You can probably get by with a single Group 31 battery in the Deere providing it has a minimum of 950 CCA.

 

[CalG]

My dad has a JD 4230 and an IH 454. They both use 2x6V batteries that never last long, just don't have enough juice in the winter, and are getting increasingly harder to find.

I've tried to talk him into just using a single 12v battery for each tractor that will last longer and be much easier to come by, but he insists that buying a new 6v battery or two every year is the best way. Does father know best?

A 12V wet cell is no more than two 6V batteries in a common case.

 

[RickB]

As a practical matter there have been many dozens if not hundreds of such conversions. I’ve never heard or read of anyone going back to two six volt batteries. Two 6 volt Group 5D batteries rated at 850 CCA wired in series equals 12 volts and 850 CCA. Two 12 volt Group 31 batteries rated at 975 CCA wired in parallel equals 12 volts and 1950 CCA.

 

[Oldtractorfixer]

I have found that grp31 batteries are a real bargain for the output they provide. It probably has to do with the fact that most highway semis has 3 or 4 of them so they make a bunch of them and it's an item the fleets price shop. It does pay to shop as places that deal with truck people have better prices.

 

[jaydee325]

but he insists that buying a new 6v battery or two every year is the best way. Does father know best?

Two 6v batteries wired in series is a 12v battery. If dad is replacing only one, that will drag the new battery down and result in shorter life.

Are the 6v batteries being replaced with golf cart type batteries (i.e deep discharge) or starting batteries?

Two 6v batteries is not the issue. I'd be doing some trouble shooting for parasitic loads that are causing a constant discharge. You can replace with a single 12v battery, but if the issue is not corrected, the 12v battery won't last long either.

 

[John_Mc]

There is no good reason for sticking with 6V batteries.

However, I agree with Jaydee325. The real question is, why are his 6V batteries only lasting a year? Time for some trouble shooting as to what is going on here. Is there a drain on the batteries when not in use, or is the tractor unused for extended periods of time? (all lead-acid batteries self-drain over time, and the process is accelerated in warmer temperatures.)

In addition, I'd hook the batteries up to a battery maintainer when not in use, to prolong life. I've had very good experience with the BatteryMinder brand. You can buy direct, or find them at Northern Tool: BatteryMinder model 1500 for a lower-cost model (1.5 Amp, desulfating, temperature compensated), or model 128CEC1 for a more deluxe model (selectable 2/4/8 amp charging, desulfating, temperature compensated, charge profiles for Gel, flooded lead-acid, and specialty AGM). They also make solar powered charger/maintainers, if the tractor is stored in a location with no power. While their cheapest model, the 12117 has been mostly discontinued (now only sold through Northern Tool) does a decent job and includes desulfating, I don't recommend it often since it does not include temperature compensation - which can be an issue of your tractor is stored in hotter or colder climates). There are other good brands, this is just the one I'm most familiar with.

They make a 6 volt charger, but that's not the way I would be going with this.

 

[WranglerX]

Car and Deep Cycle Battery FAQ, Battery Manufacturers and Brand Names List, and

Dale

 

[Gary Fowler]

Two 6v batteries wired in series is a 12v battery. If dad is replacing only one, that will drag the new battery down and result in shorter life.

Are the 6v batteries being replaced with golf cart type batteries (i.e deep discharge) or starting batteries?

Two 6v batteries is not the issue. I'd be doing some trouble shooting for parasitic loads that are causing a constant discharge. You can replace with a single 12v battery, but if the issue is not corrected, the 12v battery won't last long either.

I totally agree. Find the reason the batteries are going bad. Any battery whether 6v or 12v in a diesel tractor should last at least 4 years as long as your charging system is working properly. Your system could be overcharging the batteries and burning them out just as easily as it could be failing to charge. An ammeter should tell you if the charge is doing correctly or if the needle is constantly in the 12-14v range, the voltage regulator might be bad. After running a while to recharge the starting drain, the needle should return to near zero.

Yearly replacement of battery/batteries) is not the answer.

 

[mcfarmall]

Find and repair the parasitic drain or overcharging condition. Keep the top of the battery as clean as possible as a film of dust and dirt WILL conduct electricity and discharge the battery.

Don't believe me?? Take a filthy battery, place the + lead of a VOM on the positive post and the - lead on the dirty battery top and see what the meter does.

 

[bigtiller]

One of the worst things you can do to a battery is not use it.
A battery maintainer will greatly prolong your batteries life.

 

[RickB]

I totally agree. Find the reason the batteries are going bad. Any battery whether 6v or 12v in a diesel tractor should last at least 4 years as long as your charging system is working properly. Your system could be overcharging the batteries and burning them out just as easily as it could be failing to charge. An ammeter should tell you if the charge is doing correctly or if the needle is constantly in the 12-14v range, the voltage regulator might be bad. After running a while to recharge the starting drain, the needle should return to near zero.

Yearly replacement of battery/batteries) is not the answer.

6 volt batteries are less durable and more expensive than a decent quality Group 31 battery. If he can buy two batteries that last longer than the original configuration, have more than double the CCA at lesser cost what is the downside? Changing the cable configuration and ditching the 40 year old cables will probably cure the underlying problem if there is one anyway. If he chooses to try one Group 31 battery the savings are greater. For me, converting is a no-brainer.

 

[CalG]

6 volt batteries are less durable and more expensive than a decent quality Group 31 battery. If he can buy two batteries that last longer than the original configuration, have more than double the CCA at lesser cost what is the downside? Changing the cable configuration and ditching the 40 year old cables will probably cure the underlying problem if there is one anyway. If he chooses to try one Group 31 battery the savings are greater. For me, converting is a no-brainer.

How do you substantiate your statement that 6V batteries are less durable? Show your work.

 

[RickB]

How do you substantiate your statement that 6V batteries are less durable? Show your work.

Anecdotal evidence similar to the OP’s poor service life of these batteries. Not at all uncommon. And no, I don’t have to “ show my work”. It’s called an opinion based on experience and an understanding of real world costs. Take it or leave it, I’ll sleep well either way.

Here are two questions; how many tractors, trucks or other equipment or vehicles produced in the last 30 years have left the factory with multiple 6 volt batteries? Why not?

 

[CalG]

Anecdotal evidence similar to the OP痴 poor service life of these batteries. Not at all uncommon. And no, I don稚 have to show my work? It痴 called an opinion based on experience and an understanding of real world costs. Take it or leave it, I値l sleep well either way.

Here are two questions; how many tractors, trucks or other equipment or vehicles produced in the last 30 years have left the factory with multiple 6 volt batteries? Why not?

Why Not?

Wire Size! The move is to 24V and beyond. Check with your local military outfit for confirmation. It has Nothing to do with battery service life!

 

[4570Man]

How do you substantiate your statement that 6V batteries are less durable? Show your work.

Getting 12 volts with 6 volt batteries leaves more room for bad connections but aside from that I don’t have any proof.

 

[dragoneggs]

Getting 12 volts with 6 volt batteries leaves more room for bad connections but aside from that I don’t have any proof.

Agreed. Charging one vs. two, which is the weak one? Just less hassle IMO.

 

[RickB]

Why Not?

Wire Size! The move is to 24V and beyond. Check with your local military outfit for confirmation. It has Nothing to do with battery service life!

Military? What part of this discussion did that come from? This is about 12 volt systems and 6 volt batteries. Current demand dictates wire size. Nothing else. Thanks for being obtuse.

 

[John_Mc]

Military? What part of this discussion did that come from? This is about 12 volt systems and 6 volt batteries. Current demand dictates wire size. Nothing else. Thanks for being obtuse.

Yes, current demand does dictate wire size. However, higher voltage means less current is required to get the same job done: Power = Current X Voltage.

 

[PILOON]

The main reason for going 24 volts is weight of all the copper wire needed for the multiple electrical systems.
The bigger the aircraft the longer the wire runs and the larger the wire gauge needed to carry current.
On large aircraft voltage drop also must be considered due to lengths.
You could probably also add cost of copper to the equation.

Just look at the wire size of a 6 volt system vs a 12 volt system, a 6 volt starter is using what seems to be welding cables.

Heck I'm surprised cars haven't gone to 24 volts yet.