OK, put in new plunger, contacts, and bendix gear in starter. it's as bad or worse then before. what the heck is going on!!!!! I took a flashlight and a screwdriver and rotated the ringear, there's a little damage/burrs here and there, but it doesn't look bad enough to be the problem. it's certainly not anywhere near what the picture of the bad ring gear looks like.
help, starter trouble.
- Thread starter haybaler9
- Start date
- Views: 3377
Farmerford
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2006
- Messages
- 733
- Location
- Columbus, Georgia
- Tractor
- Kuborta B2400, L2900, L4330; Caterpillar D3B, John Deere 455D
Haybaler 9:
We might be able to help if you give us a bit more information.
Start with Rbargeron's question: is the grinding a continuous zzzzing or short crunch?
Let me back up further:
When were the engine and transmission overhauled and why?
How long (ie, how much use) after the overhaul before the starter began to grind?
Did it do anything else unusal before the grinding?
Did the grinding start all at once or did it gradually increase as you used the starter?
When it does crank the tractor, does the grinding occur or does it make any other unusual noise?
Does it matter whether the tractor is warmed up or not?
Does the engine ever "kick back" when you start it (I have known that to actually spin the ring gear on the flywheel and loosen it permanently).
You problem could (only?) be either the ring gear slipping on the flywheel or the bendix (pinion) not engaging the ring gear or the overrunning clutch in the bendix slipping.
I would try to start the tractor and when it began grinding let it grind for a few seconds and note whether the engine turns at all by watching the fan/alternator/etc. Then remove the starter and look at the ring gear. If you let it grind a few seconds and the flywheel/ring gear did not turn, then there should be a shiny spot on the ring gear where the side of the pinion touched. If you suspect that but are not sure, put some sticky substance (that will not harm the clutch) on that spot on the ring gear (joint sealing compound, gasket maker, or even a black magic marker should serve). Also mark a place on the ring gear and adjoining spot on the flywheel with a dab of paint, magic marker, etc. Replace the starter and try again. If the pinion is grinding against the ring gear without moving it the "marker" substance will be ground off.
If the pinion is not grinding against the side of the ring gear but the engine is still not turning, then either the ring gear is slipping on the flywheel or the overrunning clutch is slipping. Turn the flywheel with a screwdriver until the two mark(s) are visible. If they are still together, then the ring gear has not slipped on the flywheel. If the two marks are no longer adjacent, then the ring gear has slipped. That just about gets you down to the pinion clutch.
We might be able to help if you give us a bit more information.
Start with Rbargeron's question: is the grinding a continuous zzzzing or short crunch?
Let me back up further:
When were the engine and transmission overhauled and why?
How long (ie, how much use) after the overhaul before the starter began to grind?
Did it do anything else unusal before the grinding?
Did the grinding start all at once or did it gradually increase as you used the starter?
When it does crank the tractor, does the grinding occur or does it make any other unusual noise?
Does it matter whether the tractor is warmed up or not?
Does the engine ever "kick back" when you start it (I have known that to actually spin the ring gear on the flywheel and loosen it permanently).
You problem could (only?) be either the ring gear slipping on the flywheel or the bendix (pinion) not engaging the ring gear or the overrunning clutch in the bendix slipping.
I would try to start the tractor and when it began grinding let it grind for a few seconds and note whether the engine turns at all by watching the fan/alternator/etc. Then remove the starter and look at the ring gear. If you let it grind a few seconds and the flywheel/ring gear did not turn, then there should be a shiny spot on the ring gear where the side of the pinion touched. If you suspect that but are not sure, put some sticky substance (that will not harm the clutch) on that spot on the ring gear (joint sealing compound, gasket maker, or even a black magic marker should serve). Also mark a place on the ring gear and adjoining spot on the flywheel with a dab of paint, magic marker, etc. Replace the starter and try again. If the pinion is grinding against the ring gear without moving it the "marker" substance will be ground off.
If the pinion is not grinding against the side of the ring gear but the engine is still not turning, then either the ring gear is slipping on the flywheel or the overrunning clutch is slipping. Turn the flywheel with a screwdriver until the two mark(s) are visible. If they are still together, then the ring gear has not slipped on the flywheel. If the two marks are no longer adjacent, then the ring gear has slipped. That just about gets you down to the pinion clutch.
problem not related to overhaul, just started out of the blue. the first time it was just one little grind, then the tractor started. it rappidly got worse, now you have to turn the key 4 or 5 times and hear it grind and then it starts and yes the engine does turn a little bit when it grinds. I also noticed like the 5th time I took the starter out it's starting to wear on the ring gear right on the end of the tooth so it's not engaging properly. would a bad overrun clutch make it not engage the way it's supposed too??? the clutch is $150 so I would just get a whole new starter if that's the problem.
Farmerford
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2006
- Messages
- 733
- Location
- Columbus, Georgia
- Tractor
- Kuborta B2400, L2900, L4330; Caterpillar D3B, John Deere 455D
Haybaler9:
I have had a locked up (or just hard to turn) overrunning clutch that kept the pinion from fully engaging the ring gear. It acted just as you describe.
What I think happens is this. Even though it is supposedly a "one way" clutch, the outer cage (and attached pinion) will turn a bit against the rollers before it locks up. Of course, in the opposite direction it turns freely (if not locked up or hard to turn). The small rotation in either direction is sufficient to let the pinion teeth move just enough to mesh with the ring gear teeth and the pinion slides into full engagement. The bevels on the ends of the pinion teeth and ring gear teeth encourage this slight rotation.
But over time the overrunning clutch will get dry of lubricant or dirty or otherwise frozen or just hard to turn. When it reaches that stage it can't rotate easily in either direction and, unless the teeth on the ring gear and pinion are aligned almost perfectly, the pinion does not engage. However, if the pinion engagement lever is spring loaded, the soleniod continues to move, compressing the spring, and closes the contacts across the 12 volt feed. At that point the pinion spins against the side of the ring gear. But the odds are that on some tries the teeth will align and the starter will work normally.
So, if your pinion clutch is stuck or hard to turn, that could cause the problem you are experiencing. Depending on the design of the clutch, you may be able to clean and oil it. You might even drill a small hole in the sheet metal bearing shield on the side of the clutch so you can look inside and perhaps oil it.
I have had a locked up (or just hard to turn) overrunning clutch that kept the pinion from fully engaging the ring gear. It acted just as you describe.
What I think happens is this. Even though it is supposedly a "one way" clutch, the outer cage (and attached pinion) will turn a bit against the rollers before it locks up. Of course, in the opposite direction it turns freely (if not locked up or hard to turn). The small rotation in either direction is sufficient to let the pinion teeth move just enough to mesh with the ring gear teeth and the pinion slides into full engagement. The bevels on the ends of the pinion teeth and ring gear teeth encourage this slight rotation.
But over time the overrunning clutch will get dry of lubricant or dirty or otherwise frozen or just hard to turn. When it reaches that stage it can't rotate easily in either direction and, unless the teeth on the ring gear and pinion are aligned almost perfectly, the pinion does not engage. However, if the pinion engagement lever is spring loaded, the soleniod continues to move, compressing the spring, and closes the contacts across the 12 volt feed. At that point the pinion spins against the side of the ring gear. But the odds are that on some tries the teeth will align and the starter will work normally.
So, if your pinion clutch is stuck or hard to turn, that could cause the problem you are experiencing. Depending on the design of the clutch, you may be able to clean and oil it. You might even drill a small hole in the sheet metal bearing shield on the side of the clutch so you can look inside and perhaps oil it.