I took my 2210 into the dealer last week to find out why my 2210 was starting with the PTO engaged. I got a call today from the dealer telling me that my 2210 had been stolen last night. I 'm in and all out panic at the present moment. I have paided on that tractor for 10 months (after putting 3 grand down) and the idea of the insurance company (dealer's insurance company) giving me market value and having to start over is not at the top of my list of good outcomes. The tractor only had 70 hours on it and I have the 210 loader in my garage with no tractor now to put it on. The dealer is trying to have my homeowner policy pay for the tractor but I dont think so, its their fault it was stolen, let them pay. Please if any one has had this happen to them let me know what I should do or what I should expect?
Help, the dealer let someone steal my 2210!!!
- Thread starter hodoms
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robison
Silver Member
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- John Deere 4510 / John Deere GT235 / DR mower
I am an automobile dealer and I have faced similar situations myself.
The dealer is only responsible for your tractor if he was negligent in caring for your tractor. If he left the key in it, out by the road . . . it may be his fault.
If, on the other hand, it was locked in a storage area and thieves cut the lock and dragged it and three others away . . . how can he control that?
As dealers we are responsible for taking reasonable care of equipment entrusted to us by our customers. We are not responsible for every random act of theft or vandalism.
I hope this makes the situation a little clearer. There is no set answer. It depends upon the circumstances.
The dealer is only responsible for your tractor if he was negligent in caring for your tractor. If he left the key in it, out by the road . . . it may be his fault.
If, on the other hand, it was locked in a storage area and thieves cut the lock and dragged it and three others away . . . how can he control that?
As dealers we are responsible for taking reasonable care of equipment entrusted to us by our customers. We are not responsible for every random act of theft or vandalism.
I hope this makes the situation a little clearer. There is no set answer. It depends upon the circumstances.
tanuke01
Bronze Member
He (the dealer) and you ( Robinson) should have Insurance the same as very one else.
If it was your under his control his Ins should pay.
DPR
If it was your under his control his Ins should pay.
DPR
beenthere
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Contact your insurance, and let them be in contact with the dealers' insurance. I'd say it was the dealers responsibility, and for a dealer, car or tractor, to say it wasn't their problem, would put me into orbit and I'd not have ANY respect for that dealer.
But unless you signed something to say the dealer was not liable, I'd say they are responsible, and should replace the unit. Nothing is going to make it 'alright' unless they just happen to find the stolen unit. But, then you might get the usual lazy police answer of "Yah, that happens nowadays" and get your blood pressure up all over again.
But unless you signed something to say the dealer was not liable, I'd say they are responsible, and should replace the unit. Nothing is going to make it 'alright' unless they just happen to find the stolen unit. But, then you might get the usual lazy police answer of "Yah, that happens nowadays" and get your blood pressure up all over again.
I don't know what to say to express my level of disappointment at your statement. All that you say probably is true but you think a dealers could do more to secure my tractor than they did. I asked the dealer how the thieves stole it and he replied "they unscrewed the cattle guard gate from a wood post." So I guess they took reasonable care to ensure it was safe from thieves but if I can lock my tractor in a buildings at night you would think a dealer could with millions of dollars in sales afford to build a secure facilities for tractors in excess of 10 grand. I also think the idea of my insurance company having to pay for the tractor is crazy. I'm I suppose to pay a $500 deductible and higher insurance rates for years to come because this dealer failed to lock my tractor up in a building or at least something more secure than a make shift secure area closed with a cattle guard gate.
BloomingtonMike
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So it sounds like he can just go get an upgrade on the 2210 tonight then and stop by and pick up a new car as well. No big deal.
Good luck on getting the insurance co to just think it is not your concern. That is why you have insurance is because you cannot control the random acts.
Good luck on getting the insurance co to just think it is not your concern. That is why you have insurance is because you cannot control the random acts.
trlong
Platinum Member
hodoms (AND Robinson),
I just spent 8 hours, yesterday, listening to an insurance Expert give a seminar on Auto Insurance, specifically including business insurance for coverage of vehicles "in their possession". Bottom line, as I heard it, is that if a dealer does not have coverage for vehicles "in their care", either they, or their insurance company screwed up big time, or both! You take possession of some ones vehicle for "pecuniary interest", you take on the liability, unless, as stated, the customer signed some waiver that the dealer was not responsible for theft or damage while in their possession. I don't think it is a matter of negligence in not securing the vehicle from theft, just a matter of not buying, or being properly advised by an insurance agent to purchase coverage. IMHO
What if their mechanic took it out for a test drive (as in an auto) or to test a mower, FEL, ... on a tractor and busted it, ran it into another vehicle, ...whatever. Should that be your insurance company's problem?
Before I let my insurance company hit me with a $500 deduct, I'd get a take on it by a competent attorney for < $100, as to who should pay. But then, I could be wrong (it's been known to happen but I can't remember when : /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif)
Tom
I just spent 8 hours, yesterday, listening to an insurance Expert give a seminar on Auto Insurance, specifically including business insurance for coverage of vehicles "in their possession". Bottom line, as I heard it, is that if a dealer does not have coverage for vehicles "in their care", either they, or their insurance company screwed up big time, or both! You take possession of some ones vehicle for "pecuniary interest", you take on the liability, unless, as stated, the customer signed some waiver that the dealer was not responsible for theft or damage while in their possession. I don't think it is a matter of negligence in not securing the vehicle from theft, just a matter of not buying, or being properly advised by an insurance agent to purchase coverage. IMHO
What if their mechanic took it out for a test drive (as in an auto) or to test a mower, FEL, ... on a tractor and busted it, ran it into another vehicle, ...whatever. Should that be your insurance company's problem?
Before I let my insurance company hit me with a $500 deduct, I'd get a take on it by a competent attorney for < $100, as to who should pay. But then, I could be wrong (it's been known to happen but I can't remember when : /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif)
Tom
robison
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( He (the dealer) and you ( Robinson) should have Insurance the same as very one else.
If it was your under his control his Ins should pay.
DPR )</font>
"Under your control" is the key . . .
If your employee takes it for a test drive and crashes that's under your control so your (dealer) insurance pays.
If it is on your lift being serviced and it falls off, that's under your control and your insurance pays.
If it's parked in your fenced strorage area and someone cuts the fence and steals it, that's not under your control and you took reasonable care . . . your insurance does not pay.
A dealer's insurance protects the dealer from his own actions including negligence. It does not protect his customers property from all hazards just because the car is parked at the dealer.
When a car is parked outside a dealership at night and someone comes along and stels it the situation is no differenet from a car being parked at a movie theitre or mall and being stolen there . . . do you expect them to pay, too?
There is a form of coverage called "direct primary" whereby a customer car will be covered for all hazards but it is not required by law and many places don't use it.
If it was your under his control his Ins should pay.
DPR )</font>
"Under your control" is the key . . .
If your employee takes it for a test drive and crashes that's under your control so your (dealer) insurance pays.
If it is on your lift being serviced and it falls off, that's under your control and your insurance pays.
If it's parked in your fenced strorage area and someone cuts the fence and steals it, that's not under your control and you took reasonable care . . . your insurance does not pay.
A dealer's insurance protects the dealer from his own actions including negligence. It does not protect his customers property from all hazards just because the car is parked at the dealer.
When a car is parked outside a dealership at night and someone comes along and stels it the situation is no differenet from a car being parked at a movie theitre or mall and being stolen there . . . do you expect them to pay, too?
There is a form of coverage called "direct primary" whereby a customer car will be covered for all hazards but it is not required by law and many places don't use it.
robison
Silver Member
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- Apr 27, 2005
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- Western Massachusetts
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- John Deere 4510 / John Deere GT235 / DR mower
Trlong . . .
I see you are in VT, with similar rules to MA. I have written a number of articles on this subject and I've been with Universal Underwriters (the leading carrier for auto dealers) for more than a decade.
The key points to establish who pays when a car is damaged at the dealers are:
Is it under the dealer's control?
Being driven by a mechanic, being worked on in the shop, sitting on jackstands waiting for a part, in the paint shop while a repair is drying . . . those are examples of "under control"
Damage in a parking lot is a grey area . . .
If the parking lot is managed by the dealer, then damage within the lot is presumed to be under their control. For example, if the dealer has a fenced area that only staff enter a car that was damaged there would have been under teh dealer's control
But a public accessible lot is not under the dealer's control. Unless the dealer staff did the damage anything out there is not their responsibility
The next question is "was there negligence on the dealer's part?"
Examples would be leaving keys in a car, leaving it running . . if someone drove it away the dealer was negligent and is responsible.
Locked up in a fenced enclosure is not negligent unless there is reason to believe the stolen vehicle needed special protection and the dealer knew it.
For example, if a car comes in and the owner says "I have $8,000 of custom wheels and stereo - you don't leave my car out at night do you?" and the dealer says they will protect it but lock it up outside . . .dealer is responsible because they were adviced this car is special and agreed to protect it.
But if a Mercedes comes to the dealer, and it's one of 60 Mercedes in the fenced enclosure out back, and someone climbs the fence and trashes it . . that's not negligence because it's treated in a reasonable manner along with all the other cars.
A final example is a vehicle damaged by an act of God . . a tree falling on a car during a storm is again not the dealer's responsibility. Another example of this is hail damage
I hope these examples make clear that dealer liability is far from being black-and-white. A customer who assumes the dealer is responsible for any possible hazard to their car is mistaken.
Many dealers do have direct primary coverage whereby their policy does pay for most issues that the dealer may not have responsibility for, but even then the dealers insurer may recover from the customer's company.
Direct primary coverage is a customer goodwill thing, not something the dealer is required to have.
Hope this helps make things clearer. It's a complex issue.
I see you are in VT, with similar rules to MA. I have written a number of articles on this subject and I've been with Universal Underwriters (the leading carrier for auto dealers) for more than a decade.
The key points to establish who pays when a car is damaged at the dealers are:
Is it under the dealer's control?
Being driven by a mechanic, being worked on in the shop, sitting on jackstands waiting for a part, in the paint shop while a repair is drying . . . those are examples of "under control"
Damage in a parking lot is a grey area . . .
If the parking lot is managed by the dealer, then damage within the lot is presumed to be under their control. For example, if the dealer has a fenced area that only staff enter a car that was damaged there would have been under teh dealer's control
But a public accessible lot is not under the dealer's control. Unless the dealer staff did the damage anything out there is not their responsibility
The next question is "was there negligence on the dealer's part?"
Examples would be leaving keys in a car, leaving it running . . if someone drove it away the dealer was negligent and is responsible.
Locked up in a fenced enclosure is not negligent unless there is reason to believe the stolen vehicle needed special protection and the dealer knew it.
For example, if a car comes in and the owner says "I have $8,000 of custom wheels and stereo - you don't leave my car out at night do you?" and the dealer says they will protect it but lock it up outside . . .dealer is responsible because they were adviced this car is special and agreed to protect it.
But if a Mercedes comes to the dealer, and it's one of 60 Mercedes in the fenced enclosure out back, and someone climbs the fence and trashes it . . that's not negligence because it's treated in a reasonable manner along with all the other cars.
A final example is a vehicle damaged by an act of God . . a tree falling on a car during a storm is again not the dealer's responsibility. Another example of this is hail damage
I hope these examples make clear that dealer liability is far from being black-and-white. A customer who assumes the dealer is responsible for any possible hazard to their car is mistaken.
Many dealers do have direct primary coverage whereby their policy does pay for most issues that the dealer may not have responsibility for, but even then the dealers insurer may recover from the customer's company.
Direct primary coverage is a customer goodwill thing, not something the dealer is required to have.
Hope this helps make things clearer. It's a complex issue.
I have two scenarios for you. Who is responsible if the dealer has one of his own tractors from his inventory stolen from his lot? Does his insurance cover or is it John Deere's insurance? I think we know the answer to that one. Also, if you come over to my house and are helping me finish my basement and leave some tools overnight at my house and someone breaks in and steals them, is it your fault the tools were at my house? No, my homeowners policy would cover that. I would go back to my insurance co and the dealer and demand that they cover this.