Help With Burried Water Lines

[EddieWalker]

Dave,

Tracer wire is just 12 or 14 guage wire that you tape to your lines. I tape it to every joint when I put it in.

You need to leave the ends out to hook up to it, and when you run out of wire, the end of the old run and the beginning of the new run are alos left exposed.

I run them up a piece of scrap PVC to just below ground level, then cover it up with a cheap valve cover box. You can always find the lid in the grass, but the green color blends in nicely.

Depending on how deep your pipe is burried, you can always find it with either a metal detector or the meter that you hook to the wire. Sorry, I foget what it's called.

It sends a signal down the wire and you can walk over the ground with a sensor and know exactly where the wire is and how deep. It's especially useful for deep lines and finding the right one when there's multiple lines real close to each other.

Eddie

 

[turnkey4099]

Just a few comments to add to what others have said.

Re the basic outlay of your system. You have a 100' elevation difference and as you say, that uses 50psi just to get he water to the house. For useable house pressure and outside watering you need at least 30 psi minimum there and 40 psi is better. The suggestion to use a booster pump and tank at the house is the way to go.

There is no need for check valves between house and well. If you use a booster pump, then a checkvalve prior to the booster pump would be needed (otherwise you would also be raising the pressure back to the well. Anything that would cause water to flow backwards (when not wanted) is going to be a system fault anyhow.

There is no need for a return line to the well head. System pressure is going to be minimum 50 psi there anyhow (see above). Install your pressure tank and tee off a standpipe at the well head.

You do not need the control wire running from the house. All your pump control is interested in is what is the system pressure. It will be the same at the well as at the house (allowing for that 50 psi). It should be possible to find a controller that can be installed at the well, if, of course, you don't install a checkvalve where it is not needed.

Don't confuse pump depth with pumping head. You have 100 ft of head above the well head plus whatever head you have from the well head down the -water level- in the well. Any additional depth below the water level is basically a zero in head calculations.

The question of two pressure tanks. There is no problem doing it and a second pump controller is not needed. I have seen several systems (my neighbor has one) using two tanks. In his case the second was added for more volume. The two tanks in effect just act as one. Basic hydraulics - pressure (static) is equal throughout the system. Of course you do have that 50 psi to allow for.

PVC vs Pex: I go with PVC but sched 80 for underground lines. The repair or modifications are a snap and cheap. PEX fittings and the tools to install them are far from easy or cheap.

Harry K

 

[jinman]

I would do all the tracer wire stuff for the water line, but I'd also take a gazillion pictures of the trench and covered trench after the pipe is buried. I document every burial I have with my digital camera. It only takes a computer to look at the pictures and print out a "map" of the location. You have to have additional detection gear to find a tracer wire.

 

[hilld]

Here is what is required for underground Pex installations (at least in Oregon).

If Pex/Wirsbo (same company) goes through concrete, it should be sleeved.
If Pex is used underground, brass fittings, instead of the inside the house plastic, must be used.

The brass fittings make the whole thing a little more expensive, however, Pex does have some inherant advantages.

1. It generally will not freeze (the tubing will expand if the contents freeze) and will retract to its orginal shape afterwards.

2. It is durabel & flexible and comes in 100' rolls (fewer connectors) or even longer (never looked into that).

3. It requires a special tool to expand the tubing before the fitting is inserted (can be rented from the supply house for a day) - no glue

4. Comes in different colors (if one chooses to have their hot and cold lines in red and blue) or use clear for everything and stock less material.

5. Faster to install in stud/joist construction - the holes don't have to be perfectly lined up and long runs can be installed quickly.

Pex costs more per foot than PVC, but is substantially better than CPVC for interior purposes, CPVC is a headache, especially going down the road, it is turning out to become brittle on the hot water side, many plumbers around here will no longer use CPVC due to the future liabilities that might arise.

Derek

 

[Farwell]

Dave,
I am not sure what the coating on the wire is, but it looks like regular insulated solid copper electrical wire. The tracer wire that is buried with my gas line between my house and pole barn is clamped to the pipe where it enters the ground and where it leaves the ground at the barn with a screw type hose clamp. The utility companies have equipment that can follow the wire and mark the ground with paint prior to digging. You may be able to rent the equipment if you ever need to trace the pipe. I also take digital photos of everything that goes under ground.
Farwell

 

[SkogenMe]

Another variation on the tracer wire theme.
As Jinman said ...you need a locator to mark it out on the surface but if you give yourself some clearance over the pipe, with luck you will grab a wad of tape before the pipe /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
good luck
detectable bury tape

 

[Dirthog]

Most good pipe supply yards have a tape apx 4" wide that you bury with the line that all line locaters will pick up. The other thing is i would not use pipe with glue joints here in pa I have had to dig up and replace a lot of it that cracks and brakes at the joints or right beside it even in a couple of municipal systems that I do work for quit using it for that reason they just use pipe with bell and gasket that lets it flex a little

 

[EddieWalker]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Another variation on the tracer wire theme.
As Jinman said ...you need a locator to mark it out on the surface but if you give yourself some clearance over the pipe, with luck you will grab a wad of tape before the pipe
good luck
)</font>

Not sure if I understood the meaning of this, so excuse me if I'm out of line here.

When you dig up a buried line with equiment, you dig beside the line. Not over it. The idea is to dig down below it a little so you can get to it from the side. Shovel digging is always whatever is easiest and fastest, but if the line is 2 to four feet deep, you want a backhoe if you can.

If it's a water line, you dig down several feet past the pipe so you can catch the water and get it away from the pipe. On big lines, you'll also need to pump the water out. But the goal is to expose the break and have room to clean and repair it properly.

It's realy importat to know exactly where the pipe is in the ground so you can get as close as possible without damaging it any further. Tape the wire to the pipe. Even if your several feet down, you can tell exactly where it is with a metal detector.

This is true for taping into a line also. If you decide down the road you need to T off a line, it's real easy to access it and find it with the tracer wire. Dig down beside the line and you willl never cause it any harm.

Eddie

 

[CurlyDave]

You do not need the control wire running from the house. All your pump control is interested in is what is the system pressure. It will be the same at the well as at the house (allowing for that 50 psi). It should be possible to find a controller that can be installed at the well, if, of course, you don't install a checkvalve where it is not needed.

Thank you for that insight. I am beginning to see the light.

You and valleydweller1 are right. I think a pressure tank and controller at the well head, and then a booster pump and second pressure tank (this one will need a check valve) at the house is the way to go. This eliminates the return line.

I think I can get a pressure switch which would allow enough pressure to feed a booster pump at the house, and a cursory internet search turned up pressure tanks with 125 psi working pressure. Pressure switches are another matter, but it looked like adjustable ones which I could set to come on @ 80psi and off @ 100psi are available. This would still require a pressure reducer for domestic water at the wellhead, but that is easy.

The pressure tank at the well head is going to need a high enough setting to overcome the height difference betweeen the well head and the house, and the friction in the water line to the house, which is why I think I need the 80/100 settings.

I am still undecided on PEX vs. PVC. The main reason is the unknown of PEX and chlorine. While there should not usually be chlorine in the water, from time to time other wells in the county have become contaminated with bacteria. The first treatment attempted to remedy this situation is always super-chlorination. So while chorine exposure is not a standard operating environment, it is an easily forseeable abnormal condition, which could last for months. And not just 1 or 2 ppm, a larger and actually not well controlled concentration seems to be used.

Now, on the subject of tracer wires, I am still going to need a conduit in the trench for a low-voltage signal wire to control a gate at the property entrance, and to provide intercom capability at the gate. Is there any reason I can't just pull an extra wire in the conduit and use that as a tracer wire, or even just use a spare in the signal bundle? It will always be 12" to the east of the water line, and should be just as easily found as a standard tracer wire.

Plenty of pictures is always good, the country requires marker tape, and I will drive 18" sections of 3/4" galvanized pipe at about 50" intervals along the trench, similar to the monuments surveyors place, but with no surveyor's plastic cap -- just a plain galvanized screw on cap. A couple of hours doing this while the trench is still visible is going to be a great investment.

I will ask about backfilling the bottom of the trench with sand. I know the power company requires conduit for power cables to be backfilled with 3/4"- crushed rock, and that may be the right material to use.

As far as spare lines goes, if we use PEX in conduit, I will just rely on being able to pull another one through the conduit. If the decision is PVC, then I will lay a spare.

 

[Egon]

Curious if you have to have frost protection. That could play a role in the design.

If there is any kind of wire in the trench, eg low voltage line you will not need a tracer line.

Egon