Help with grading scraper operation

[corey9212]

Hello, I was out doing lane way maintenance with my grading scraper and I can't figure out why all the gravel is sitting inside the scrapper like it was a box blade than being distributed like it should. I've watched the videos on it and I can't see what they are doing differently than me. The gravel is completely dry and is soft.
Any help or advice would be appreciated.

 

[bcp]

One manufacturers instructions I read online said that was caused by speed being too low.

But, no personal experience with one-still collecting materials to build one.

Bruce

 

[ricklman]

hmmm... I've never laid hands on one, but the pics look like the blades are almost vertical and are about, what, 3-4" tall? If that's the case, it would act like a box blade in my opinion... Most of the other brands I've seen on the site show more horizontal angles on the cutting blades which should allow the gravel/dirt to flow easier.

I would also think the cutters would be a bit farther apart. Maybe the back blade be 4-6" farther back from the front?

Dunno, design issue?

 

[huskerhayman]

It looks like you have quite a bit of dirt and fines mixed in your rock. Mine will build up like that in dirt and act sort of like a box blade. I would try tipping it forward a little and leave a small gap under the back blade to let the fines out and keep the rock rolling over the top. Wish I had a hydro top link. It is on my list of things to get and should make adjusting/playing with it a lot easier.

 

[Gordon Gould]

Beside the speed change suggested and the shortening of the top link suggested I would also try to lengthen the top link to make the rear blade cut harder. I am thinking out loud here. The newly cut material may lift the accumulated stuff up over the blade to get a flow going. Also try adding some weight to make sure you are actually cutting and not just floating on all that accumulated stuff.
Let us know when you find the right combination.

 

[corey9212]

One manufacturers instructions I read online said that was caused by speed being too low.

But, no personal experience with one-still collecting materials to build one.

Bruce

I've tried it in both low gear and high gear and the only difference is how fast it builds up between the blades.

hmmm... I've never laid hands on one, but the pics look like the blades are almost vertical and are about, what, 3-4" tall? If that's the case, it would act like a box blade in my opinion... Most of the other brands I've seen on the site show more horizontal angles on the cutting blades which should allow the gravel/dirt to flow easier.

I would also think the cutters would be a bit farther apart. Maybe the back blade be 4-6" farther back from the front?

Dunno, design issue?

The blades are quite aggressive and high, I've thought about that too, but with the design the blades are permanently mounted, it is a king cutter box blade and I think design issue too cause the build up happens at the left hand side of the blade then spreads to the right hand side but I want to make sure it's not operator issue first.

It looks like you have quite a bit of dirt and fines mixed in your rock. Mine will build up like that in dirt and act sort of like a box blade. I would try tipping it forward a little and leave a small gap under the back blade to let the fines out and keep the rock rolling over the top. Wish I had a hydro top link. It is on my list of things to get and should make adjusting/playing with it a lot easier.

The rock is straight crush run, no dirt or clay mixed in, I've tried tipping it forwards with a little better results but it will still build up and if I go too far then the rear blade becomes useless, I've also tried tilting it back and that does stop it from building up but then it works by gravel going under it to smooth instead of over it. The hydro top link has been one of my best investments, so much easier to work a lever on the go than stopping and twisting then going.

Beside the speed change suggested and the shortening of the top link suggested I would also try to lengthen the top link to make the rear blade cut harder. I am thinking out loud here. The newly cut material may lift the accumulated stuff up over the blade to get a flow going. Also try adding some weight to make sure you are actually cutting and not just floating on all that accumulated stuff.

Problem is lengthening the top link doesn't make the blade cut harder cause of how much rail is behind it, it will actually pick the blade up an allow gravel to go underneath. It was cutting at first but after it was cut and I was leveling it out was when the build up started to happen.

 

[corey9212]

Also the grader is a king kutter professional 6' dual edge land grader, if that helps at all

 

[bcp]

I didn't find the instruction manual which mentions carrying too much, but I found another with recommended speeds.

I think the top speed on a BX is about 8mph, "full throttle, full pedal, high range," so if you weren't near that, you may still have been too slow.

From the Gearmore manual
Gearmore, Inc. - Grading Scrapers, GS/GSI Series - Grading Scrapers, GS/GSI Series

2. Start on the far right hand side of the road. Make your first pass at a slow speed, approximately 2 miles per hour. This will allow the unit to cut out and fill holes. Work the far right side on the road and return by grading the opposite far side of the road. Continue until you reach the center.

3. To finish grade, it is usually necessary to make one more set of passes at a higher speed; approximately 7 miles per hour. The higher speeds allow the material to flow over the first blade, thoroughly mix between the two blades, then exit from the rear blade achieving a smooth finished road surface.

 

[corey9212]

I didn't find the instruction manual which mentions carrying too much, but I found another with recommended speeds.

I think the top speed on a BX is about 8mph, "full throttle, full pedal, high range," so if you weren't near that, you may still have been too slow.

From the Gearmore manual
Gearmore, Inc. - Grading Scrapers, GS/GSI Series - Grading Scrapers, GS/GSI Series

2. Start on the far right hand side of the road. Make your first pass at a slow speed, approximately 2 miles per hour. This will allow the unit to cut out and fill holes. Work the far right side on the road and return by grading the opposite far side of the road. Continue until you reach the center.

3. To finish grade, it is usually necessary to make one more set of passes at a higher speed; approximately 7 miles per hour. The higher speeds allow the material to flow over the first blade, thoroughly mix between the two blades, then exit from the rear blade achieving a smooth finished road surface.

I did do the slow speed to loosen everything up and was doing what would be the high speed pass, I do know I wasn't going all out with the speed but was close and it filled up between the blades and the tractor lost traction and I was a sitting duck with the wheels spinning but going nowhere.

That link is a good find and has some useful information that I will definitely read over.

 

[boggen]

was thinking same lines as everyone else, first was top link shorten or length it, then ground speed. but was at a complete loss, till i took a reading over the link bcp noted for a manual.

it noted something about adjusting the
right hand side lower lift arm, and lower it 2 or 3" vs other side, to allow for a dome errr crown for the road. and working on the right side of the road first, then on way back working the other side, and then repeat till you reached center of the road.

changing the lift arm angles. would adjust how rocks/dirt sift under blade on one side and go over blades on the other side.

on different note, speed may be a big deal. it gives everything much more force in how much it bounces around. and if the bouncing can help cause rocks to clear the top of the cutting edges / blades. and land plane works, by kinda sifting everything. to bring rocks to the surface. and dirt to the bottom. if the rocks are just sliding or just barely turning / tumbling in front of blades and then getting packed up with dirt. and not bouncing. you loose effect of any sort of sifting action. or rocks going over the blades.

my other question are you trying to take to big of a bite at one time? now that everything is loose. what happens if you raise land plane, so you not relying on weight to sink it into the ground. but rather, only taking so much rock / dirt at one time. other words instead of a land plane sinking 2" into the ground lift it up so the blades only catch the top 1" of rock and dirt. adjust top link as necessary to keep land plan level.

 

[corey9212]

was thinking same lines as everyone else, first was top link shorten or length it, then ground speed. but was at a complete loss, till i took a reading over the link bcp noted for a manual.

it noted something about adjusting the
right hand side lower lift arm, and lower it 2 or 3" vs other side, to allow for a dome errr crown for the road. and working on the right side of the road first, then on way back working the other side, and then repeat till you reached center of the road.

changing the lift arm angles. would adjust how rocks/dirt sift under blade on one side and go over blades on the other side.

on different note, speed may be a big deal. it gives everything much more force in how much it bounces around. and if the bouncing can help cause rocks to clear the top of the cutting edges / blades. and land plane works, by kinda sifting everything. to bring rocks to the surface. and dirt to the bottom. if the rocks are just sliding or just barely turning / tumbling in front of blades and then getting packed up with dirt. and not bouncing. you loose effect of any sort of sifting action. or rocks going over the blades.

my other question are you trying to take to big of a bite at one time? now that everything is loose. what happens if you raise land plane, so you not relying on weight to sink it into the ground. but rather, only taking so much rock / dirt at one time. other words instead of a land plane sinking 2" into the ground lift it up so the blades only catch the top 1" of rock and dirt. adjust top link as necessary to keep land plan level.

I have been contemplating on the too big of bite but (and please correct me if I'm wrong) isn't one of the main features of a grading blade the skids on each side to make it all float on top of everything? Cause the blades only stick out 1/4" below the skids, so when I drop it down onto the skids there is only 1/4" bite taken out. I will definately try the increased speed to see like you said, to get the rocks tumbling (hopefully over the blade.)

 

[jenkinsph]

My take on it is that your ground is too dry and fluffy to work well. I suspect if you wait for it to rain and then try again you will get better results. Loose gravel can be difficult to work because the skids will easily bury themselves in the loose roadbed. A plane needs the surface to be hard enough to slide over without sinking too much. I use my planes to smooth lawn areas for the majority of the time and have found that setting the blades to zero works much better.

 

[corey9212]

My take on it is that your ground is too dry and fluffy to work well. I suspect if you wait for it to rain and then try again you will get better results. Loose gravel can be difficult to work because the skids will easily bury themselves in the loose roadbed. A plane needs the surface to be hard enough to slide over without sinking too much. I use my planes to smooth lawn areas for the majority of the time and have found that setting the blades to zero works much better.

It is very soft gravel cause of the last week it's been in the low 30's celsius (mid 80's Fahrenheit) with no moisture at all. I may try taking my sprayer and giving it some water if the techniques won't work while dry.

 

[crazyal]

Can you adjust the height of the blades? I find that if I raise my blades to about 1/4" to 1/2" of an inch higher than the skids once the gravel is loose I get much better results. On the loose gravel the skids will dig in a little and with your blades being lower than the skids you end up digging up a lot more gravel than you need to on the final passes. It seams to over power how much gravel can go over the top of the blade and builds up a mount in front of the blade.

 

[jenkinsph]

It is very soft gravel cause of the last week it's been in the low 30's celsius (mid 80's Fahrenheit) with no moisture at all. I may try taking my sprayer and giving it some water if the techniques won't work while dry.

That might help water helps settle the dust as well as the loose fines on the surface. Something I would also consider trying is making some bolt on flatbars that are wider to put on the bottom of the planes skids. These would raise the blade effectively and provide more floatation for the running surfaces.

One thing is sure the harder surfaces are easier to work with when you are finish grading. I use a vibratory roller to pack on critical jobs.

 

[corey9212]

Can you adjust the height of the blades? I find that if I raise my blades to about 1/4" to 1/2" of an inch higher than the skids once the gravel is loose I get much better results. On the loose gravel the skids will dig in a little and with your blades being lower than the skids you end up digging up a lot more gravel than you need to on the final passes. It seams to over power how much gravel can go over the top of the blade and builds up a mount in front of the blade.

No I'm pretty sure I can't adjust the blade height, that was a feature I wish I got, I do agree with the skids sinking causing the blades to dig up more than they should.

That might help water helps settle the dust as well as the loose fines on the surface. Something I would also consider trying is making some bolt on flatbars that are wider to put on the bottom of the planes skids. These would raise the blade effectively and provide more floatation for the running surfaces.

One thing is sure the harder surfaces are easier to work with when you are finish grading. I use a vibratory roller to pack on critical jobs.

I've never thought about that, it would help with crazyal's suggestion of raising the blades. I wander if wood would work until I get some made to float it and raise the blades. If the increase in speed doesn't work I will be definitely doing that.

 

[TO_Bud]

Haven't got a lot to offer that hasn't been said but when I am using my grader that kind of buildup only occurs when the road bed is very soft and not compacted. The potholes have all been cut through at that point and the road bed is ready for its' final leveling. If I keep my blades in an aggressive cut the buildup will eventually slow my tractor to zero as the load overcomes my traction and I'm using a 40hp with 4wd. At this point I think you need to go less aggressive with the grader as others have advised by lengthening your top link and yes the spoil will pass under and over the rear blade in a final spreading action.

 

[jenkinsph]

Good point aboout lengthening the top link as other mention. I think you could add some 1x6 wood to the bottom of the skid and it would help you float better. Best would be 3/4" plywood with 45 degree cut on the ends to match back up with your flat running surface.


I plan on building some skid shoes similar to this to allow me to screed top dressing on my lawn, just dump into the plane and screed a 1/2" layer of the top dressing in the fall.



More on the top link adjustment, I use a hydraulic top and side link and find that you need to pull the plane forward slowly and adjust the front blade to barely touch the surface. When backing and smoothing in reverse you need to tilt (raise) the rear end of the skids such that these aren't digging into the ground.

With a standard screw type top link get it adjusted for the forward direction where it isn't digging too deep. When backing up raise the hitch and implement off the ground. Use the plane in forward direction only to alleviate constant top link adjustment. A plane needs to shave off the high spots and deposit this material in the low spots. It doesn't need to gouge the surface and dig constantly if the ground smooth and planar. The reason most planes have the cutting edges set low is to cut down and mix the gravel and fines bring the gravel back to the surface. That said I have had much better results smoothing the ground with the blades set flush with the skids. The sheer weight of the plane will cause it to dig in enough to quickly load it with material even with the blades set flush.

Here are pics of my 8' landplane notice the skids are wider than most and the blades are set flush. The blades are set straight and this landplane weighs about 950 lbs. Also notice my lawn is smooth and that is what I initially built this landplane to fix. another picture of my shop foundation where I used this plane to smooth and a picture of my newly built 4' plane for my garden tractor.

 

[joeyd]

Go to Everythingattachments.com they have a section on implement demonstrations with an 8 min video demonstrating how to use one. It was pretty infomative and had good footage on how the material built up in the attachment.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

You should not have to alter the implement at all. Just need to find the right adjustments to achieve the results that you want with the conditions that you have. To obtain these results you will need to take the top link, side link and 3pt hitch height adjustments into consideration. When you make adjustments, only make one at a time. That will tell you if the adjustment that you just made is helping or making things worse.

My first suggestion would be to lower the grader so that the runners juuuuuuust touch the ground with the front cutting edge slightly higher than the rear blade. Maybe about 1/8" higher. Do not just put you 3pt raise-lower lever all the way down. You need the hitch to be holding up the weight of the implement at this point in time.

Good luck.