HELP with my DRIVEWAY- I THINK I GOT TAKEN!

[BobbiinPA]

I just recently had a new driveway installed, for years it was loose stones with border made from belgian blocks. THe contract stated that "3 inches of asphalt" was to be installed. He graded the area, (moved some dirt around and rolled the area before pouring asphalt). So the base was small amount of loose stones left on the driveway that he rolled. I have marked the belgian blocks for 3 inch marks all over, so I would know that he poured what he promised. After he was done, it wasn't even close to the marks. Also, I have taken off some belgian blocks throughout the driveway, and every signle one is about 1 1/4 inch of asphalt, not even close to 3 inches. When I told him its not 3 inches, he told me in some area he couldn't do it because the driveway was wavy and that he used 3 inches but when it gets compacted it becomes 1.5 to 2 inches (even though he told me 3 inches compacted when we were negotitating, but the written contract just states 3 inches of asphalt, it does not specify compacted) and he told me I have to pay or he would call the police, so I had to pay him full price I agreed to even though I think he shortchanged me big time on the amount he poured.
I am a single women that does not know much about driveways, but I think I got taken big time. Can someone with some expertise in paving help me and tell me if his story makes any sense. I am thinking of taking him to small claims court, but need to have some questions anserwed before I do that.
1) If the contract states 3 inches of asphalt, does that imply compacted or not?
2) Even if he used 3 inches uncompacted, what would the compacted amount be?
3) What is the industry standard for thickness of residential driveway?
4) What is realistically life expectancy for a driveway with 1 1/4 inch asphalt as compared to 3 inch driveway? I bet that I will have to repair much sooner!
5) What would be fair price adjustment on something like this, if I contracted him for 3 inches, but got 1 1/4.
PLEASE HELP ME WITH THIS, I NEED YOUR ADVICE ON WHAT TO DO NOW and YOUR EXPERTISE WILL BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

 

[Golfgar4]

First, welcome to TBN.

I'm sorry you had to make your first post about a problem. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I'm sure that many of the good folks here will be able to help you with the technical side of this problem. I will offer some other information, however.

You might want to contact your local Better Business Bureau to see if there have been any complaints about this particular business. If you don't have a BBB in your area, try your Chamber of Commerce.

You might also contact your local Code Administration Department to find what, if any, codes might apply to your situation. One of their inspectors may be able to come out and inspect the job to see if it meets standards. Along the same line, check with the City Attorneys office to find out what legal recourse you might have. Even though the City Attorney's office may not be able to do anything, they will probably at least put you in contact with a free legal service that you could go to for advice. I know our City Attorney does that all the time when he gets these kinds of calls from a citizen.

I hope this helps. Please keep us informed as to your progress.

Good luck. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[MicroPilot]

When did this happen? How did you pay him? If by check see if you can put a STOP payment on the check, and get some legal advice.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

I won't repeat anything already posted, but I just had my asphalt driveway re-paved. So now I have 2 layers of asphalt on a rock base. The first layer was about 1.5 to 2 inches thick and had been in place for about 8.5 years. It was starting to crack in one area of the drive where there is water runoff. Two weeks ago I had another 1.5 to 2 inches put on top of the existing driveway. So I have a double layer, and it probably averages a bit over 3" total thickness.

I believe my driveway is probably over-built at this point, but I was having a lot of work done at my office and parking area so I had the crew swing out to the house with the thought of doing the repair on the water damaged area and they went ahead and fixed that small cracked area (3' by 14' area) and then repaved the entire drive.

I have really no idea if 3" of asphalt compresses down to 1.5" or 2", but I suspect it would not compress quite that much. However, if the gravel base is in good shape with no underlying water/drainage issues, then you should get 10 years or more out of a driveway if you seal it every 3 years. I got 8.5 years out of a small part of my 1.5" to 2" thick drive and that part was water damaged due to a drainage problem, the remaing 95% of my driveway was in very good to excellent condition and did not need any work.

I don't know if you were "taken" or not, but I suspect your driveway, if the gravel base is solid, will last you for quite a while.

 

[Junkman]

His threat to call the police is just a threat. If had called the police, they would have notified him that it is a civil matter and that he should take his claim to the courts. 3" of asphalt wouldn't compact to 1 1/2" in my best guess. I will check with a friend tonight to see how much compaction is done by rolling. Usually there are two coatings done on a driveway. The base coat, which is usually 2" and the top coat of 1 1/2". I hate to say this, but I believe that you have been had and the quality of the work is possibly sub standard if the contractor cheated on the materials. You have no idea as to how many other things he might not have done properly. If you paid by check, drive to the bank and put a stop payment on the check. If not, go to the local court and fill out the small claims forms. How much money did this job cost and how big is the driveway? As for your question of "driveway life expectancy", that will depend on the preparation of the base more than the actual top material. If the base isn't good, then there is no amount of asphalt that will make up for this. Take pictures with a ruler showing the depth if you have to go to court. Do it now, before he claims that it "settled".

 

[Egon]

Did you select the contractor or did he contact you? Is the contractor local and have an established buisness?

Many times the uncompacted lift is stressed rather than the compacted figure. A 3 in. lift should compact to around 2 in. or a little less depending on mixture type and temperature.

The 1-1/2 lifespan depends on how good the base is, weather conditions and loads it is subjected to.

Note; threating to call police scares many people but in this instance there would have been no police presence unless the argument escalated to violence or the fellow refused to leave your property when asked.

Sorry I've been of no help but another fellow has already given the steps you should take.

Egon

 

[slowrev]

Not so sure I would get code inspectors involved. You might be the one end up paying if things were not done right.

 

[Golfgar4]

You do have a point.

But in my community, generally speaking , our inspectors only would go after the property owner if the owner was doing the work themselves. In most cases, where a contractor was hired to do the work, it is the contractor who is expected to coordinate all permits, etc. and who the inspectors would go after.

I guess I would hope that BobiinPA's local inspectors would work with her on resolving any problems. Unfortunately, that is not always the case, and in BobiinPA's situation, would only add insult to injury. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[higgy]

Bobbi indicated that the contractor stated that the driveway was "wavey". Wouldn't the site preperation have removed the wavey situation prior to base compaction?

Just a thought.

 

[BillyP]

Asphalt is one of the biggest scams going, in this part of the country. It happens every summer. I've never understood why someone would pay for something they didn't get.

I have a friend that this scam was tried on. The asphalt guys said they had some asphalt left over from a previous job and would lay it in her driveway for $400. After the job was done, they said she owed $800. She paid the 400 and they threatened to call the police. She said go ahead and they left.

If it's not too late, stop payment on the check and go from there.

 

[SheriffSRB]

BobbinPA...well, I hate to tell you this after the fact, but the best thing in the world to had done would have been to let him call the cops. In Georgia, Failure to Provide Work on REAL (read land, home, etc) Property Improvements is a felony, and the most likely result would be a case being made against him, if he didn't offer to make it right, right away.
A lot of advice has been offered, most of it expensive. If he is bonded (which I hope he is, you should be able to get a copy of his insurance policy) then you can make a claim against his bond, which will inhibit his ability to get further work.
I regret what happens when it comes to driveway paving...we arrest several "Irish Travellers" a year in our area who conduct these scams....If this guy was from South Carolina, he may well be a traveller, and your local Sheriff or Police Dept needs to know about him anyway....
Sorry.....
Good luck......

 

[gws]

Even if you didnt pay it would be a civil issue. Police might come but not much they can do to make you pay. If the contract say 3 inchines then show 1 1/4. Even compacted 3 inches should be more. STOP the check.

 

[neilly2]

The answers to your questions:

1. 3" asphalt pavement means compacted inches. It's not law but its convention and he would lose in court.
2. 2 1/4 to 2 1/2"
3. 3 or 4" where climate cold.
4. No exact time, but a lot less for sure. 1 1/2 inches of pavement only is a disgrace. No reputable paver would put down such a narrow profile over stone. (even overlays of existing pavement should be no less than 2")
5. The majority of the cost differential between the thicknesses would essentially be the material cost only. He still went through the labor of paving a driveway. The extra inch really wouldn't justify additional labor cost. He was just making some easy money by putting down less material.

I'm so mad hearing this I almost used one of those little yellow faces.

The waviness of the driveway wouldn't affect the top of the asphalt relative to your white lines on the belgian block. The top of the asphal would be level and the bottom would be wavy. Even so he graded it!!! He's responsible for the waviness!!!

This guy has taken you and it really gets me mad. I'd love to approach this guy. Perhaps you could post the company name (in an unrelated post) to see if anyone knows him. If you PM me with the info I'll call him for you.

Stop payment if you can, but I bet he cashed it immediately after you questioned him.

You can still sue him, and you'll win because the evidence is sitting in your driveway and its not going anywhere.

I can't believe he strong armed you with the cops. This guy is a peach.

 

[Junkman]

I checked with my friend a paving contractor. He said that 3" usually means a compacted depth. Some contractors will call it 3" before compacted. Either way, 3 1/2" will compact to 3" and 3" will compact to 2 1/2". There is no doubt that you have been had. Now it is time to take your case to the authorities. Many communities require registration for certain services and permits to be taken. Hopefully your community will be one of them and they will be able to remove this creep from doing business in the area. Chances are, that he is already gone and will never be seen in the area again. That is how they work. My rule of thumb is if they are not listed in either the white pages or yellow pages of the telephone book, I don't do business with them. There are enough "fly by night" people out there and this is one way to weed them out.

 

[Onthelake]

Junkman,
I had one of these scam artists try to sell me a drive. Asked how thick. He had to think a bit and then said 2". My brother-in-law does paving and I already knew 3" was the right answer. Then I asked what was the company name. This is where is gets interesting. He told me. I went to the yellow pages and there was the company. Sooooo I called them. They said they don't have salespeople knocking on doors. So you always have to be careful. I'm still driving on gravel.

 

[Junkman]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Junkman,
............................. My brother-in-law does paving and I already knew 3" was the right answer. .............................. I'm still driving on gravel. )</font>

Guess that you and the brother in law are not close...... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

That is true about using someone else's name. Wonder what name they put on the truck??????? Where there is a will, a scam artist will find a way.. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[BobbiinPA]

Thanks so much for such a valuable information everyone! I feel much better now knowing at least that my gut feeling was right, and I can go after this guy in small claims court and he won't be able to use his B.S. on me in court because I'll say that the industry standards are diffrent. He does have an established business (he was in yellow pages and had trucks with the business name), but I bet you he never thought that I would measure the asphalt, so like someone said he decided to make a quick buck at my expense. The check was cashed, but I definetly will go to small claims court to get my justice. I am so glad that I found this web site! Thanks so much everyone for your support and information! Special thanks to Neilly 2 and Junkman for your experitse! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Hakim]

Hi BobbiinPA,

I can understand your anger and confusion over the asphalt job on your driveway. However, before going to small claims court, I would advise that you first try to "settle" this with the person.

I would write out a letter, and make your points exactly; for example, that construction standards are for 3 inches (compressed) layer, etc. I would find another asphalt company, preferably local, to confirm this. Maybe ask for a quote from the other company. Or even offer to pay a good business $25 to write an "opinion" letter. That will be needed in a court appearance anyway. What you "heard" on TBN will likely not be accepted as expert testimony by the judge.

Since the guy is a local business, with at least some reputation to care about, you have a good chance of getting him to "make good." But you need to be quite specific with him about what that means. Do you want a $300 cash rebate? Do you want him to come out and pour that additional 1 inch of asphalt? Or what?

You have the Better Business Bureau. Check them and see if he has other complaints. Just filing a complaint with them, or threatening to, can get results form many business persons.

You also may have access to one or more local "agencies," such as a contractor's licensing board or similar agencies. They often get involved when their licensees perform substandard work. And, as others have mentioned, there is always the local states attorney -- "driveway laving" scams are rampant, and they often like to jump on these kinds of cases. A call or letter to him from the States Attorney is going to get action, pronto, compared to a letter from a small claims court.

Maybe the way he did your driveway is just the way he does do things, even though it isn't at all up to the standards you had a right to expect.

In any event, "going to court" will freeze this in a poisonous mode, and make it unlikely that you will get any satisfaction. Judges may side with him, simply because he did in fact perform services.

Try the "negotiation over confrontation" method first. It just may work. At least, you will have all the facts carefully defined, in the event it does not work. You will be seen as the more reasonable person, who tried to resolve the issue, but was rebuffed.

All the best.

 

[Junkman]

You might give the BBB or the Chamber of Commerce a call. If he gets an inquire from them, he might just come back and put down the balance of the material that you paid for rather than go to the hassle of a bad report. If he is known as a bad operator, then the small claims court route is the only way. You will need some more "expert" proof other than what has been posted here if you are to win. Try contacting the "asphalt paver's association" for literature on driveways. Do a Google search to locate the different organizations that serve the industry. Good luck and keep up posted. Please don't be a one time visitor. We need a womans touch around here once in a while... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Onthelake]

Junkman,
B-I-L said he would do the paving for free if I paid the commute cost. Seems he lives 500 miles away. I passed.

BobbiinPA,
I agree with Hakim. Small claims judge will take two things into consideration. First, have a witness IN PERSON. Letters are "hearsay" and don't much count if that is your only evidence. Second, if you don't try to settle first with the contractor, the first thing the judge will ask is "Why not?" Plus the contractor may say he tried to make it right and you refused a reasonable solution.