Hinomoto N209 refuses to start. H E L P

[Hans Clahsen]

Hope it's OK to post here. I'm new and have the same post under OTHER BRANDS where I have received NO replies. Hope I have more luck here since I am desperate. But I have a serious problem. My Hinomoto N209 has only 24 hours on it. Guess it's since it was rebuilt. Had several problems which I fixed already. But now I have one that has a very experienced diesel mechanic scratch his head. It's a professional and it's NOT me. The tractor had been sitting in the shed for about 2 months during which time one of the hoses from the fuel tank to the filter had cracked just behind the clamp. Yes, the fuel filter is clean. In other words most of the fuel had leaked out. I had to do a small job and when I cranked it up, the LOW FUEL light came on but started immediately. Regardless I did the job (about 10 minutes total) and most of it idle speed. On the way back it stalled about ten feet from the storage shed (garage) and there it sits today, blocking my drive way. Equipped with a front end loader and box scraper, both sitting on the ground.

I hired this mechanic and he has worked on it five hours already, but the tractor will not start. He replaced all fuel hoses and even replaced the OEM fuel pump with a new electric one. Now we have fuel all the way to the injectors (3 cylinder). While cranking, the exhaust smokes dark grey to black and plenty of it. But, the thing will not fire. My mechanic is a truck engine type mainly and this little tractor has him stumped. All this just because the thing ran out of fuel. There must be something that prevents the engine from firing. But what??? Any and all help will be greatly appreciated. Before this the engine always fired after no more than two-three revolutions. BTW, on top of the engine it says: HINOMOTO DIRECT INJECTION. While I'm here let me mention that I have been hunting for a parts/operators manual for a very long time. Any help there?

Thanks and my location is S.E. Arizona.

 

[RoyJackson]

You might want to PM some of the guys that own these machines. There's a few listed in the Grey Market forum.

I think you should drain your fuel system and put clean fuel in there.
If that doesn't do it, check the timing. Since I doubt you have a manual, determining the timing specs/procedure might be challenging.

BTW, do a search (Goggle) using "Hinomoto N209". I got a few hits, some of which were right here on TBN.

Good luck...

 

[john_bud]

My guess is that you need to step back and take a deep breath!


Ok, Here's one plan of attack.

1) Charge the battery up fully. Cranking a dead diesel is a draining experience. Much more so that a gas engine, a diesel needs to turn at a high rate to compress the air enough to fire. Put a slow trickle charge on it over night, then using a large "starting" charger boost it while cranking it.

2) Inspect the fuel lines from the tank to the filter and from the filter to the pump and from the pump to the injector. You quite possibly have a 2nd bad line or loose fitting. Yeah, even the pro's fail to torque... Get some CLEAR plastic hose and put a 1" - 2" section right before the injector pump if at all possible. If you see any bubbles - you have a suction leak.


3) Re-crack the injectors one by one and crank the engine for exactly 60 seconds while each is slightly open. You want a good solid spurt from each. Torque the fittings down tight on each. Wait exactly 3 min between injectors to allow the starter to cool. After the 3rd one bled, charge the battery up fully.

4) Clean the ground connection to the starter and the battery connections / cables. You'd be surprised how bad some can be.

5) Does the tractor have glow plugs? If so use them. In fact, if you have a hair dryer or better,a heat gun use it to heat the metal air inlet tube and the intake manifold. You can even direct hot air into the air cleaner while cranking. Careful not to melt any plastic parts.


6) Crank for up to 1 full minute with the charger on the battery. If you have a second good battery, jump it into the circuit.

7) all this assumes that you have filled the tank up to the top. A full tank will prime much faster than just adding a gallon or two.


Did the mech you hired put a pressure regulator on the new electric pump?

Good luck.

jb

 

[Hans Clahsen]

Thanks Roy and JB for your posts. Roy, as you may have read in my post there was NO fuel to drain since that is what caused all this in the first place. And yes JB, the tank is full to overflow. Couldn't get another thimble full into it. - No, it seems to be impossible to get a manual for this thing; so I would not have any idea how to check the timing. Also, how could it mess up the timing just by running out of fuel? - JB, I have the charger on the battery at all time and we used a large battery from a diesel truck to boost it. ALL fuel lines from the tank to the injectors have been replaced with new ones. There is plenty pressure to the injectors, all three of them. However, we'll do it again and use the time intervals you suggest. Each time we crack the injectors, the fuel squirts about 20 feet. Could not tell you about a pressure regulator. The mechanic is waiting for me to call him if I ever find out anything. He has given up. Besides, it is an 80 mile roundtrip for him each time I call him. Don't ask me what the bill is.

In closing: I am not a mechanic (at least not with diesels) but I just cannot understand or believe how running out of fuel can mess up timing (Roy's tip), mess up injectors, screw up glow plugs which are all working. We have squirted at least a gallon of fuel thru the lines to the injectors (and all the fuel fresh from the service station). Yes, we also double checked the new hoses and clamps. Took out the fuel filter which was as clean as my coffee cup. As I said before the tractor only has 24 hours on it. Always ran perfect each time I started it. I realize there is no electrical ignition on a diesel, but I cannot get out of my mind that something electrical is missing. What could it be??? I'm positive it's something very simple. I hope someone had a similar problem and found it. I am certainly not the first one who ran a diesel dry. Thanks for trying, Guys.

 

[Soundguy]

John bud gave some good advice ( as did others ) A fuel starved diesel can be a bear to bleed sometimes.

Do the rebleed.. charge the battery up.. jump in a second if you hav eit.

If that don't get her. remove the loader or jack and chain/prop it up, and pull start her.. use high gear.. pul starting will generally make an engine fire that doesn't like to bleed out with the starter.. though usually leaves a few scars in your yard..

Soundguy

 

[Grrrr]

I know how difficult it is to get diesels going again after running out of fuel.

We have a Massey Ferguson 135 that has loads of rubbish in the bottom of the tank. (It really needs flushing out) Anyway, every now and again the filter directly under the tank clogs up.

The normal routine is a two person job, one to unscrew the tap under the tank and clean the thing out and one to put their finger on the hole in the tank.

We must have done this 6 times but a couple of days ago the thing conks out right in the middle of me rowing up some hay ready for the baler. Really bad.

We get our spanners and do the normal thing. Once that is done we undo the bleed screw and crank the engine over a bit to bleed it. Then normally it will start right up. This time no.

Then we undid an injector and cranked it a bit. Fuel came out and we tried starting it again but nothing.

Really starting to get worried now as we need to get on with baling.

Then we turn back to the tap under the tank. There is a little valve that you can shut off the fuel supply with. I thought it was fully open. There was fuel coming out of it. I could blow air through it easily. We didn't think this was the problem but we turned it and tried starting up again.

Nothing.

Then we turned it back again to what we thought was on. Bled the system again and still no luck.

Then my grandad tries turning the tap on more. It moves a tiny bit. I try cranking it over and it fires straight up on a very dead battery

It obviously wasn't getting quite enough fuel before.


I don't know if your Hinomoto has this little tap but it is certainly my first suspect when there are fuel problems.

Once a diesel gets enough diesel it should fire up.

You might also want to check there is nothing blocking the air inlet as this would cause it to refuse to start.

 

[wushaw]

I will take a stab at it
Tractor set in shed for two months then ran out of fuel and won't start now.
Check for blockage in air intake, I know it sounds strange but were fishing at this point.
And your glow plugs are working? Easy to check.. pull em out and plug em back in and heat em up to see if they get hot.

 

[VistanTN]

Hinos (my A-C 5020 is really a Hino down underneath) have a reputation for being EXTREMELY hard to bleed all the air out of the fuel system. Don't know if it is the layout, or what, but the guy I bought mine from said he had to bleed and re-bleed it multiple times after changing the fuel filter. I know I have been very careful not to run mine out because of his warning. Apparently something about their piping layout allows trapped air bubbles even when you seem to have a solid fuel stream out of the injectors or maybe it allows just a little air back in as you tighten it back down. I'd keep trying the bleed routine (it's a two person job) given what I have heard about Hinos.

 

[DrRick]

I ran our 5020 out of fueland spent days trying to bleed the lines. I finaly took the lines to the injectors loose and filled them with diesel - basically backfilling or priming the injector pump. This was what got it to fire off. Started right up. It may not be what fixed it but I had tried to force fuel up to and thru the injection pump but it just did not work that way. Go Figure??

 

[john_bud]

Each time we crack the injectors, the fuel squirts about 20 feet. Could not tell you about a pressure regulator. The mechanic is waiting for me to call him if I ever find out anything. He has given up. Besides, it is an 80 mile roundtrip for him each time I call him. Don't ask me what the bill is.

.

Something there isn't right. You DON'T want the injector line to injector taken off. That would be "bad". You just want to loosen the fitting that connects the hard line from the pump to the injector. Usually, when it's finger tight not dribbling any out, you go 1/8 to 1/4 turn more. Then fuel will dribble out. That's all you want, just a dribble - not a flood. Certainly not a recreation in 1/16th scale of Old Faithful!

Why?

If you take the hard line loose from the injector and crank the tractor, the fuel in the line will flow forcefully. Sir Issac tells us that things in motion stay in motion. So after the pump stops pumping, the fuel in the line keeps moving for a short distance. It will either draw a bubble in from the open end and pull it down into the line or possibly even cavitate and create bubbles. No matter how it is done, opening the lines too far has never worked for me.

So, bleed the lines by getting them "cracked" open just a smidgen so that fuel will dribble out like soup down an old man's chin. Start with the line that is closest to the filter or lowest and progress to the one farthest away or highest.


Why is bleeding so bleeding hard? Because fuel doesn't compress like air compresses. For the fuel to get out of the injector and into the engine, it has to reach pop-off pressure. Even a small bubble will act like a cushion and keep the injector from ever reaching pop-off pressure. You have to get all the bubbles out. You are probably real real close, that's why it has nasty looking smoke. Some fuel is geting in sporatically and not with good dispersion.

It sounds like you have smartly protected your battery. And I am assuming you won't smoke your starter by over cranking (hand check the temp after cranking). If that's the case - bleed the lines for 90 seconds - using a watch. After cracking each one - torque it down tight to the correct spec.


Just a question, you don't have a "stop knob" do you? It would be silly if it was somehow knocked to the stop position....