Hobby Farmer Tractor Lubricants

[WinterDeere]

Condensation in hydraulic systems seems more common, due to lower operating temperatures and longer change intervals. Most change their oil every 50-100 hours, but hydro oil only every 600+ hours. Engine oil is usually seeing temperatures above the boiling point of water as it cycles thru the engine (even pan/sump is usually near boiling), whereas hydro oil is more often down below 160F.

So I may have given the OP something new to fixate on, but I wouldn't worry either way, I've never seen a rusty crankcase interior... everything's always coated in oil!

 

[CubCadetGuy]

My first post in quite a few years, but this conversation I think deserves a bit of a data dump on lubricants. I hope that fits with the spirit of the discussion. By the way, my SCUT is a CubCadet Yanmar Sc2400 and it is also a low use machine. I also have quite a few smaller machines.

I'll do this in two parts There are basically three properties of any lubricant that you care about: film strength, stickiness, and whether or not it has a detergent agent added. Stickiness and detergent are exactly the opposite properties of each other, and that gets to the heart of this discussion, but let's start with film strength since that is widely misunderstood.

film strength is the actual lubricating property. Does the oil resist the pressing of the parts such that they don't actually touch but slide on the oil film between them. It is incredibly difficult to measure this property, so a substitute metric is used, which is the weight of the oil. This sort of works except that synthetic oils have a much higher natural film strength than petroleum distillates, so you can use a lighter weight and get the same result. This will work will with detergent oils and is pointless with sticky oils. The reason is that the whole point of a detergent oil is to dislodge and transport sludge from the moving parts through circulating system to the filter. If there is no circulating system then both detergent oils and synthetics are a total waste of money. Heavier oils tend to be more resistant to flow without being sticky, so by increasing the weight, they will tend to stay on the parts that need lubrication longer. If you are concerned about a low use machine or one that is subjected to cold, then a heavier or multi-grade oil that thins as it warms is a good solution.

If you are concerned that an engine has been sitting for too many weeks without running, then when you start it, before putting a load on the engine, let it idle a couple minutes to ensure that the circulating system has given everything a nice fresh coat of lubricant from the reservoir. The quick application of a load will not generally impact cylinder walls, but if a bearing has gone dry or nearly so, loading it before it is relubed by the pump is not a good thing.

Sticky oils are expensive and often difficult to find.

 

[CubCadetGuy]

My first post in quite a few years, but this conversation I think deserves a bit of a data dump on lubricants. I hope that fits with the spirit of the discussion. By the way, my SCUT is a CubCadet Yanmar Sc2400 and it is also a low use machine. I also have quite a few smaller machines.

I'll do this in two parts There are basically three properties of any lubricant that you care about: film strength, stickiness, and whether or not it has a detergent agent added. Stickiness and detergent are exactly the opposite properties of each other, and that gets to the heart of this discussion, but let's start with film strength since that is widely misunderstood.

film strength is the actual lubricating property. Does the oil resist the pressing of the parts such that they don't actually touch but slide on the oil film between them. It is incredibly difficult to measure this property, so a substitute metric is used, which is the weight of the oil. This sort of works except that synthetic oils have a much higher natural film strength than petroleum distillates, so you can use a lighter weight and get the same result. This will work will with detergent oils and is pointless with sticky oils. The reason is that the whole point of a detergent oil is to dislodge and transport sludge from the moving parts through circulating system to the filter. If there is no circulating system then both detergent oils and synthetics are a total waste of money. Heavier oils tend to be more resistant to flow without being sticky, so by increasing the weight, they will tend to stay on the parts that need lubrication longer. If you are concerned about a low use machine or one that is subjected to cold, then a heavier or multi-grade oil that thins as it warms is a good solution.

If you are concerned that an engine has been sitting for too many weeks without running, then when you start it, before putting a load on the engine, let it idle a couple minutes to ensure that the circulating system has given everything a nice fresh coat of lubricant from the reservoir. The quick application of a load will not generally impact cylinder walls, but if a bearing has gone dry or nearly so, loading it before it is relubed by the pump is not a good thing.

Sticky oils are expensive and often difficult to find.

 

[CubCadetGuy]

Continuing --
As I said above, sticky oils are expensive and often difficult to find.
I use Mobile Vectra #2 that I get from Amazon. These are sometimes called "way oil" because machinists use them on the ways of their lathes. They are great for lubricating and protecting surfaces that are not associated with a circulating system. But of course, they attract and hold contaminates, so you have to clean and relube by hand.

You can extrapolate from all of this when talking about really heavy lubricants (i.e. grease). These are used where the film strength requirements are significantly greater. The grading system for greases is very confusing as there are two numbers that look the same but mean something a little bit different. The NLGI grades are pretty good nominal indications of film strength, but not very indicative of response to pressure for flow requirements. This becomes important in spindles such as mower decks. The higher performance greases for spindles are super expensive. Most shops that do not do enough work to buy them by the small barrel will not pony up the bucks to use the right stuff. This is ok, but it does mean that you should relube pretty much after every use. I recently rebuilt two mower decks and decided to go with the specification for the high pressure resistant grease. MTD sells it in 8oz tubes for about $32 a a pop. Transferring it to your grease gun is a bit of a chore since there is no cartridge, but it is what it is.

What to use where is always a matter of judgement, and budgets. I hope that helps.

 

[big bubba]

i agree with those that say avoid repeated short cold runs & work it for extended hrs. i am not a fan of short runs putzing around the compound. that's when condensation builds up. diesels like to be run steady after warm up.

given your location, i would run 5/40 full syn diesel rated engine oil for the cold starts. rotella t6 comes to mind rated for diesel use.

i would not use oil additives claiming moisture trapping. save that for diesel fuel, not engine, regards

 

[Mtsoxfan]

Another way to tell if you have moisture in oil, with engine hot, take dipstick out and let it drip on hot manifold. If it sizzles, there is moisture. Oil will just smoke/burn off.

 

[WinterDeere]

Another way to tell if you have moisture in oil, with engine hot, take dipstick out and let it drip on hot manifold. If it sizzles, there is moisture. Oil will just smoke/burn off.

Neat trick, if it works! Never even thought to try that.

 

[Mtsoxfan]

Neat trick, if it works! Never even thought to try that.

Used to do that when I turned wrenches, first step in checking for slight leaking head gasket. Heavy leakage looked like a mocha milkshake...

 

[jrsavoie]

I am the normal hobby farmer. May only use the tractor once a week but then use it for 3-4 hours. Normal use is 500 hours per year. I am concerned about condensation in the crankcase and the hydraulic system from the heating and cooling. Will the use of synthetic(T5) or simi synthetic motor(T4) and hydraulic oil help negate that problem? The synthetic hydraulic oil it double the price of TS Premium, is it worth the extra expense? Or am I overthinking again?

In my opinion, full synthetics have been well worth the investment since I started using them in the 1990s.

I've noticed the equipment run on full synthetics held up better, especially as it got older, than stuff ran on Dino.

We got over 300,000 miles on all of our old 6.5 diesels.

 

[Hay Dude]

You’re confusing what happens in an engine, where water is produced as a by-product of combustion, with a “mostly” sealed hydraulic system. Getting an engine up to operating temperature to ensure that any moisture that has been produced gets pushed out the exhaust system is a good idea. Being concerned about moisture in the hydraulic system from short run times is unnecessary, because there is no moisture being created there.

Moisture can be a problem in a hydraulic system. Ask me how I know.

 

[WinterDeere]

Moisture can be a problem in a hydraulic system. Ask me how I know.

Same. The only times I've ever had trouble with water in oil, other than the catostrophe that is a blown head gasket, has been on hydraulic systems. I can show you old HST garden tractors with hydro oil that looks like Welch's strawberry jelly, due to the amount of water that's been collected in the ATF.

 

[big bubba]

seems to me, moisture in the engine oil & moisture in hyd are 2 slightly different issues. thinking engine oil moisture is due to cold runs when engine temp doesn't build up enough.

hyd moisture builds up around housing during temp/humidity changes. in terms of engine, run your diesel long enough to burn it off, in hyd, i agree, let the machine sit several days, crack drain plug to determine moisture build up & address with just purge or filter/fluid change

 

[michaelbuck]

I think you make a valid question one thing I see too much of is tractors engines running way below their operating range.I can hear so many engines lugging away. SPIN that motor!! your not going to hurt it.If you bought a 40 HP engine why run it below its range all the time.Look at your HP torque chart for your motor.Many folks are running their engines at half power or below.

 

[thelanterns]

I am the normal hobby farmer. May only use the tractor once a week but then use it for 3-4 hours. Normal use is 500 hours per year. I am concerned about condensation in the crankcase and the hydraulic system from the heating and cooling. Will the use of synthetic(T5) or simi synthetic motor(T4) and hydraulic oil help negate that problem? The synthetic hydraulic oil it double the price of TS Premium, is it worth the extra expense? Or am I overthinking again?

My tractor is 3 years old and I only have 102 hours as of yesterday. I do change the oil and filter every spring and fall though. I use either Amsoil or Rotella T6 which are both full synthetic, with Kubota or Amsoil filters.

 

[WinterDeere]

My tractor is 3 years old and I only have 102 hours as of yesterday. I do change the oil and filter every spring and fall though. I use either Amsoil or Rotella T6 which are both full synthetic, with Kubota or Amsoil filters.

Wow... that's every 15 hours! Definitely overkill, but you're the sort of owner every used tractor buyer hopes to find!

I change my oil yearly, whether it needs it or not. That's 100 hours on average, for me. I think the manual specifies "200 hours or yearly", but I'd have to dig it out to verify.

I grease the loader and front trunion 2x per year, because the manual says every 50 hours. But loader hours are a funny thing, since they're not exactly moving all the time the tractor is running. Mower spindles also get grease 2x per year, since I do about 65-70 hours of mowing per year, but I have to admit I did them only 1x per year for many years.

 

[Balazar]

Doing the math, you are more like 200 hrs a year. If you get up to operating temp and stay there for 3 hours, condensation should not be a problem. Type of oil has no bearing on condensation. Compact tractors are like grandmas Oldsmobile, they are used so little that they will pretty much last forever as long as you change the oil and filters. In 10 years the paint will be faded and it won't even have a dozen service intervals on it.

 

[WinterDeere]

Doing the math, you are more like 200 hrs a year.

You’re assuming his hour meter is wrong, but his guess at daily usage is correct?

I’m assuming the hour meter is right, and that he’s really not using it as many hours per week as he had guessed.

 

[RayIN]

OK, Does 200 hours per year make any difference from 500 hrs per year. Sounds like worrying about condensation is over thinking. So T4 and TS premium hyd oil is fine?

You cannot prevent condensation in any space with air and vented. You're doing the best practice, which is operate the machine long enough to bring fluids to normal operating temperature for at least 30 minutes. This allows moisture to return to vapor and be pushed out the vent by heated fluid expansion.
An example: Onan generator states in the owners manual to run the genset for 2hrs/month under ½-load. This heats the oil enough to evaporate all condensed moisture in the crankcase
Cummins engine states, low idling is very hard on an engine; if one of their engines is started, run it on the road long enough to reach and maintain normal operating temperature for at least 20 minutes for the same reason.
Allison transmission has the same practice.