Honda hydrogen car??

[Big_Charlie]

So I just thought of something surrounding the idea of producing your own H2 at home either via NG reforming or H2O electrolosis...what do you do with the leftover O2? Tossing it out into your garage air is probably not wise - there's a reason you don't smoke in a hospital room or around an emphyzema patient and starting your car in an O2 saturated garage wouldn't be too smart either. It's pretty hazardous stuff in the presence of any kind of flame or spark. I suppose you could exhaust it out into the atmosphere, but if enough of the 6.2 billion people in the world started adding O2 to the atmosphere, I wonder if we wouldn't start talking about O2 pollution like we do CO2 now? I mean, if you raise the % of O2 in the air enough, plants start to die from oxygen poisoning, and consequently so do people. I know...we'll bottle up the excess oxygen and ship it to Mars for terraforming!

 

[patrick_g]

BigCharlie, It is a "zero sum game." People would not be "hoarding" the H2 and releasing O2 into the atmosphere. They would be running their Toyota H2Powered cars and John Deere H2 powered tractors and weed eaters on the H2 which would be combining with the O2 they released and the net result on average would be NO CHANGE to O2 levels or H2O quantities.

Now the natural gas reformation is just a dumb wasteful NON-recycle approach so will probably get huge Government subsidies because it involves BIG OIL.

Pat

 

[Big_Charlie]

Good point...I hadn't thought of that.

I just thought of another source of combustible hydrocarbons we humans haven't tapped yet - the huge supplies of frozen methane at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean. The stuff is down there in huge quantities just waiting for someone to figure out a way to pull it up without it flashing to a gas once the pressure is released. Some even think that these methane deposits are part of where the Bermuda Triangle gets its potency - the bubbles from them releasing into the water can almost instantly submerge a ship, the change in air density from a big methane release would bring planes down, and methane ain't exactly good stuff to breathe. But hey...it's a cleaner fuel than gasoline!

 

[gemini5362]

I looked at the Billings Energy site. They have been looking into fuel cells it seems like.
http://www.billingsenergy.com/Research/HWV-Chapter_07.pdf This is the page where they talk about their hydrogen fuel storage tank. You will notice if you read it that they are talking about something they developed in 1973 in this article they mention the hydrogen generator system that they developed for home use ten years before that. While I will be the first to admit that hydrogen has a long ways to go before it becomes something you can get on your way to work at a service station. Some of the problems discussed in this thread have had a type of solution for over 30 years.

 

[BobRip]

I looked at the Billings Energy site. They have been looking into fuel cells it seems like.
http://www.billingsenergy.com/Research/HWV-Chapter_07.pdf This is the page where they talk about their hydrogen fuel storage tank. You will notice if you read it that they are talking about something they developed in 1973 in this article they mention the hydrogen generator system that they developed for home use ten years before that. While I will be the first to admit that hydrogen has a long ways to go before it becomes something you can get on your way to work at a service station. Some of the problems discussed in this thread have had a type of solution for over 30 years.

There is a lot of difference between having a laboratory or protype system operational and actually selling something that people are willing to pay for and use and is safe enough and can compete with existing systems. There is a lot of work and money between the two. There is also ususally a lot of government rules and regulations which prohibit or discourage new products and processes. All of these things must be overcome to be successful in the market place. There is also presently a lot of government support for oil and coal that is not in place for new systems.

 

[gemini5362]

From a safety standpoint I believe that the article stresses what was went through to establish the safe storage of the hydrogen. Some of the posts in this thread talked about how unsafe hydrogen was to store. I am just pointing out that as long as 30 years ago there was a safe way to store it.

My belief of why the hydrogen gas internal combustion engine did not catch on was because of the size of hydrogen molecules. You had to use a lot of hydrogen to fill up a typical gasoline engine cylinder. Storage of enough hydrogen to get any range was too impractical. The web site for Billings Energy says that they are working on fuel cells now. Much more efficient use of hydrogen. I dont know if it will be practical or not I doubt if I see it in my lifetime than for no other reason than there is no infrastructure to support it. What are you going to do if you run out of hydrogen on the interstate. At todays gasoline prices it might be too impractical to build the infrastructure. If it gets to the point where people can only afford gas to work and back then it might become more profitable to work on alternative infrastructure.

 

[flusher]

Just heard about a hydrogen car made by Honda. In limited production by 09 or there about. The real thing here is Honda is working on a little hydrogen plant that can be a home model. I guess it's the long way around because you will not see big oil promoting this fuel. I read it would be cheaper if done in hugh plants. However, it would be nice to keep the big companies out of the supply business. Honda has teamed up with GM. If they could pull off these home plants, what a new industry! A little hydrogen plant in every home. Multiply the homes that need these plants by a few thousand dollars profit. Nice new industry being created. By the way, things change fast. About 6 months ago Popular Science magazine listed hygrogen as one of the least likely alternative fuels. If I understand right, Honda has improved the way hydrogen can be stored in to car for use. They have a 350 mile range per fill up.

Check it out. Search Honda, hydrogen and GM. Some nice stories to dream about.

Cheers....Coffeeman

2009 is pretty optimistic for this technology even in limited production.

IMHO, GM is on the right track with the Chevy Volt technology.

Detroit Auto Show: Chevrolet Volt Concept

 

[zzvyb6]

BTW; GM has a hydrogen powered car soon to be on the market that is not an internal combustion engined vehicle. Its the Sequel. It uses a fuel cell powered by hydrogen. A standard IC engine, powered by gasoline, propane, natural gas or cow manure wastes 2/3 of the energy in the fuel: 1/3 out the prop shaft, 1/3 out the radiator, and 1/3 out the exhaust pipe. Fuel cell technology provides for much higher efficiency. The storage problem can be solved by the same tecnology usedto prevent acetylene from releasing too quickly: disolve it into a substrate.

Sequels have been driving around here in Michigan. Their only problem is they are too quiet. You can't hear them coming or going. Meanwhile, the electric engine in the fuel cell can be used to run your house as standby power. The only thing missing are the recharg stations, which you'll be able to put in your garage. The government had indicated it would endorse having hydrogen stations all around the country, but just like they did with the GM Electric car, they never came across. State of California dropped the ball big time. Keep on the lookout, that's where all GM's money has been going (besides China and US healthcare).

 

[BobRip]

About 15 years ago I read an article that described what they thought the future care would be like. Basically it was a hybid. Typical cars have an engine (gasoline), an electric motor (starter motor), and a battery (starter). The hybrid has all of these, but the sizes relative to each other has changed. This makes for an easier transition. This made a lot of sense to me and seems to be actually happening. I think this will be the main type of vehicle for the next 20 years at least. Different engines may be used (Diesel, turbines, etc.) and batteries will improve, but the electric drive makes a lot of sense and allows other engines to be used more efficiently. i.e. don't start an engine for a short trip, run an engine at its most efficient speed, use efficiently generated electricity from a central power plant when possible. Hydrogen is not an energy source, just an energy storage mechanism and a poor one (low energy density) at that.

 

[gemini5362]

Bob could you elaborate further on your statement that Hydrogen is not an energy source but an energy storage system. I dont see why you think that