House flooding from nowhere?

[EddieWalker]

Jim,

Sounds like you've covered the basics and most likey sources of the water. I'd check the supply lines with a flashlight and dry paper towel to make sure, 100% that there isn't a slow leak with the water pressure on. I'd do the same with the refrigerator supply lines if they have an ice maker.

The laundry dischage can easily get plugged up with lint and only overflow after several loads of water. It's one of those things that 80 or 90% of the water gets through, but it's far enough down that with one load, the remaining water doesn't overflow. Then when you do the next load, the same thing happens, but this time, theres already water in the line and it overflows.

I've never seen that happen with a dishwasher, but it's possible. If it was the dishwasher drain line, it would go up the sink first, so that's probably not the problem.

Where is the air conditioner? I've seen allot of leaks from AC units in attics. The condensation drain lines get fouled up overtime and then the emergency backup line comes into play, and it gets pluged up. I went into one attic where the company before me left a bowl under the emergancy drain to catch the water instead of opening up the pluged drain line. When the bowl was full, it overflowed and there was a leak in the attic in the middle of summer without any rain.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[Dutch445]

I agree that it sounds like a leak possible where
a pipe enters the slab. A friend of mine just had the
same thing happen, but his was using a lot of hot water,
and his water heater was built onto a small wood platform, and
the leak was underneath that. once he tore out the heater and
little platform, there was the pipe going down into the slab, leaking
at that point. there was also a small piece of re-rod right next
to the pipe that the pipe was probably tied to for the concrete pour.
he ended up running some of the newer plastic pipes thru his walls
over to that bathroom where this line was headed. but it leaked a long time
before he knew what was going on.

 

[jinman]

You guys are all asking questions that I've gone over and over in my mind. That's good, because it means that there is not something I've missed.

I don't live near my daughter (about 80 miles away) and that's caused me to advise and ask questions mostly over the telephone. We did go by her house last Saturday afternoon when the plumber was there and that's when I did all my hands-on checking. For what he could do, I thought the plumber was very thorough in his checks. He had a flashlight and was looking and feeling in all the correct spots. The water had been on, but nothing used in the house for over 1 hour and the meter at the street showed absolutely no movement. This is not a pressure leak. It has to be associated with a drain. At least that's what it shows by the water meter. The plumber assured me that any slow leak would show on the meter, especially after 1 hour, but the meter was dead steady and not moving. My son-in-law had opened the wall behind the downstairs bathroom sink and also in a small coat closet in the entryway. Of course, that baseboard and bottom plate inside the wall was moist from the night before, but it was not very wet nor flowing.

They did find one 3" PVC drain that showed shoddy work. Sometimes the rough-in of drains is not exactly in the right spot. I'm told that there is a sleeve you can put around the PVC and use electric current to heat up the pipe so that it is soft and can be slightly manipulated. What we found was that they had instead used a propane torch to heat up the PVC and bend it slightly about 6" above the slab. The pipe had burn marks all around its perimeter where it was heated with the torch. Even so, with repeated flushings and shower drains from above, that PVC never leaked a drop. However, if it turns out that this is the drain pipe leaking beneath the house, I think my daughter surely has a claim against the builder.

Everyone has the right idea here. First, you make sure there is no pressure leak and then look for drain leaks. I think we are well into the 2nd phase of this and probably the scan will show results. I believe my daughter told me that they would not be able to get to her house until today or tomorrow.

What I know about this leak is it seems to be delayed. From what we can tell, it occurs only after the dishwasher has run or maybe after my teenage grand daughters take long showers. I believe the water is not backing up the drains because it is pooling beneath the slab and then slowly seeping up and into the house through some tight cracks or feedthrus. I know the dishwasher ties into the kitchen sink drain at about 2' above the level of the slab. The washer drain is also about 30" above the slab behind the washer. There are no downstairs showers or tubs for water to rise into. Actually, when my daughter called the plumber last week, they thought it was a downstairs toilet and replaced the wax sealing ring. That turned out not to be the problem and it is not leaking around the commode at all.

My daughter's carpet was soaked and she went through a dozen towels building a dam to stop the flow of water coming from under the wall. It sure seems like a lot of water to just come from leaking drains that are seeking level before draining on away down the pipe. perhaps the pipe is broken and offset, leading to a clog or partial clog with mud/dirt under the slab. That's what I'm thinking they will find. I just cannot get beyond that warm floor I felt in the kitchen. I remember looking at my daughter and asking if she had floor heat before realizing how silly a question that is in Texas. The next day, she had the flood.

Bird, you asked about the age of the house. My guess is about 10 years. This is a fairly new addition just east of the Bell Helicopter Plant in Hurst, TX. I've included a snapshot from the Google Earth Street View below. I've also included a snapshot of the inside of the house showing the bar/counter between the kitchen and living room. On the hidden side of the counter at the end is where the dishwasher is. The sink is about in the middle of this counter. The floor at the end of the counter is where it was very warm. Beyond the refrigerator is the hallway to the garage and the laundry room. Behind the refrigerator is a pantry room where most of the water seems to start running. Above the pantry is the water heater in a 2nd floor closet.

The air conditioner/heat pump evaporator is in the attic, but it has been on heat pump for over a month, so there is no condensation and its pan is dry.

 

[Bird]

Jim, if the house is that old, would they still have any recourse with the builder? I would not have thought so, but hopefully they would.

 

[jinman]

Jim, if the house is that old, would they still have any recourse with the builder? I would not have thought so, but hopefully they would.

Exactly! I'm just not sure of the age or the law. Her insurance company will probably pay and then choose whether to bring any action.

Of course, this is all just speculation. There may be nothing wrong with what the builder did and this may be just settling of the house due to our clay soil. She wouldn't be the first to have that happen. It's a fact of life in N. Texas as you know.

 

[Bird]

this may be just settling of the house due to our clay soil. She wouldn't be the first to have that happen. It's a fact of life in N. Texas as you know

Yep, all of last week there was a foundation repair crew with truck, trailer, and other equipment working on a corner house at the end of the block in my current neighborhood.

 

[JB4310]

Jim, if the house is that old, would they still have any recourse with the builder? I would not have thought so, but hopefully they would.

Around here it's only 1 year,


Jim, I am intrigued, and frustrated I can't come up any other suggestions at this time, the fact that you had a plumber there on the grounds and he couldn't find the leak makes me that much more curious.

I'm usually the guy that gets called in this situation, often times a leaking hot water heater, (10 years seems to be the magic number now days) is the cause, even after I ask them on the phone 3 times are they sure it's not the WH, when I get there it is

Especially since you felt warm floor, but I don't know, seems a stretch for a second floor WH to not show problems till it got way down under the kitchen floor.

There's alot of geographical differences that put me at a disadvantage to figuring this out, Like Bird mentioned you all are on slabs there, where we mostly have basements. We do have split levels and raised ranches that do have slabs at or close to grade.
Just the idea of WH on the 2nd floor is foreign to me, but with out a basement, I see why.

One problem I solved was a raised ranch with a slab on grade, no one could figure out the source of the leak, not plumbers, not water dept inspectors, meter was not turning.
It was a leaking base board heating pipe, part of the loop that dipped down under the floor at the door to the garage (Corroded copper pipe in concrete). It's a low pressure line and could leak quite a bit before the low pressure valve would call for make up water at the boiler. that's why no one saw the meter moving, it only drew water every hour or so.

Needless to say I was the hero in the home owner's mind that day , he had people coming in and out of his house for 3 days with no results.

JB.

 

[sellercreek]

Have you had a lot of rain lately?

 

[JB4310]

Have you had a lot of rain lately?

I was gonna bring that up, but looking at the pic of the house it looks crowned on the lot (slab is above grade), so don't think it could be ground water, unless the house is built into a hill on the back.

Another thing it could be if there was alot of rain is the weather boot at the plumbing vent stack on the roof, we do see that often and the leak sometimes does not show up till down lower in the house.

.

 

[Bird]

I just cannot get beyond that warm floor I felt in the kitchen.

I'm sure you've considered the location of the HVAC outlets. If I walk barefoot to our kitchen, there's a very noticeable warm area on the floor, but in our case, it's because the ceiling heat outlet is right above it.

A warm floor in the kitchen, with the water heater upstairs, does seem very odd.