House generator questions...second thoughts on whole house system.

[ChuckT]

We are in North Central Florida, Marion county. moved here at retirement, 3 yrs ago. Moved from Brevard county, Florida east coast. Having spent 60 years in Florida, and feeling like the hurricane season wasn't about to ease off anytime soon. I refused to live without a whole house generator system. The 500 gallon propane tank is a bit of an eyesore but a 4 bar fence fancys it up a bit.
Do whatever suits yourself but as an expat from Chicago I'll take the FL heat and humidity over the lake effect weather but with standby power.

 

[EddieWalker]

Something else to consider. When we had a big freeze, and over a foot of snow back in Feb or March, we lost power for a week, but so did the gas stations. I always assumed that they had generators, but they don't. At least none of them in my are do.

The power company was turning the power on for 20 minutes at a time, every day. It wasn't predicable when it would happen, so on the 3rd day, when the power came on, I raced to the closest gas station, filled up 2 five gallon gas cans, and by the time I got home, the power was back off again.

That lasted us the rest of the week, when power came back on. If my gas station was farther then 2 minutes away, I'm not sure I would have been able to get gas in that small of a window. If you have to fuel your generator with gas or diesel, how much will you have on hand, and can you get more if you have to? I'm hoping Natural Gas will last a lot longer then buying fuel and storing it, which is why I would only buy a Natural Gas Generator.

 

[grsthegreat]

Those generac 200 amp switches are about $700 each…since there already installed, and if wires are already run to generator location. Your only looking at the cost of generator and about 4 hours labor. How can they possibly charge you 8 grand.

 

[grsthegreat]

It comes as a surprise to some the cost to operate a whole house unit and in suburbia noise ordinances have sparked some battles when the only person with a generator runs 24/7 and everyone hears it.

My little Honda 5000 is quiet enough but when power is out as many as 5 households plugged in for refrigeration mostly...

I'm never home when it happens so Genset in garage of 95 year old neighbor who keeps a log book, fuel, extension cords... etc.

Funny, i do service on misbehaving whole house units during power outages, and all I usually hear running in neighborhoods are small portable Home Depot and harbor freight cheeper generators. There 2 to 3 times noisier than a 22kw whole house and only provide one third the power. I do love the quiet Honda inverters, but most houses out here are all electric and the small units just don’t do it. Also, a lot of the people are on wells. Just to take a shower involves a lot of power with a well and elect water heater.

 

[grsthegreat]

I was doing fine backfeeding a large Honda gas generator for years. I decided to install an automatic whole house LP Generac. Why???

Power companies are reducing maintenance and tree trimming to save money. We will be getting more outages.

I am getting older. Firing up and hooking up a generator normally occurs during bad weather.

My fiancé does not feel comfortable hooking up or setting up.

Gas units need gas. So I needed to store a lot of fuel on site or be able to get gas during a long outage. Gas goes bad so I was having to cycle through it every year.

The chart on fuel usage is deceiving. Your unit will not run at 100% during an outage.

For short outages (half dozen or so in the last 18 months) we let the unit run on auto. None have lasted more than 4 hours. But if we were looking at a long term outage, we would cycle the unit for an hour every 4-5 hours or so during the day, and turn it off at night. So it may run 4 hours a day. At 1.5 gal/hr that is 6 gal/day. We have a minimum of 500 gal LP (2 -500 gal tanks) at all times. We can go over two months if need be...but we heat with wood.

For a short outage of 4 hours it costs us $10 to do nothing. If the unit runs all day the cost is $60. The whole house unit is easy to shut down and start up so cycling is not a PITA when we want to save fuel. NG is a lot cheaper if you have it.

Factor in your age, the abilities of your wife (if you are not there) to see what solution works for you. Also your lifestyle. If you travel and have an outage, do you have someone to take care of things? In our case, if we are away and get a one week outage, it would cost us $400 but that is better than losing a freezer of food

Good post. True what you say about actual fuel usage. Last summer I had a 14 hour outage during the day. Normally I would shut down gen on a summer day during outage, but wife had a quilting club get together going so I let it run. I had a fuel flow meter installed on my unit, and in 14 hours it used 17.9 gal of propane. It is a 22kw unit, but average usage was 4 KW during outage. These big units don’t guzzle 3.5 GPH unless running full out. Now if it was the dead of winter, and all my horse waters, heat tape, elect room heaters were on, than that’s a different story.

but it is nice to have all the xmas lights on during a nighttime outage, and the entire surrounding area is blacked out.

 

[LouNY]

The first step is to decide what you absolutely need in an outage. Then figure out loads for those devices, and how they are supplied. If you need something wired into the panel my advice is to have a licensed electrician do it. As far as that chart above, my answer is to minimize loads during an outage and size the generator appropriately. Already know what you will be turning off (make a nice list). A manual start and transfer is probably fine, but make sure you test it monthly to be sure it still works.

I like to be very conservative with electricity as it is, so most of my opinions are based on this.

Your method is fine for you and if you have few and short term outages that may work good for you.
We have common short term outages from limbs or cars and poles, if the weather isn't bad at times I won't start the generator for 2-3 hours.
However when we get our severe outages from ice storms or blizzards or major wind storms creating a tremendous amount of limbs and trees down
and power will be out for a considerable time I want and have enough generator to live a normal life, often I will shutdown for 3-8 hours at night depending on the weather just for fuel conservation ($$$$$$) but I don't need to and I have enough fuel on site for a multitude of days.

 

[grsthegreat]

Now, as to the OP’s question. You can use the automatic switches with a portable generator, however you will have to do some rewiring of gen feeds to a generator ready outlet. You will have to throw the transfer relays by hand, as there will be no controls to transfer the loads. You would probably have to disconnect the coil wires on the utility side of transfer switch so you disable line voltage sensing, but im not actually positive that would be necessary. Ive never hooked one up this way.

 

[Dragonpharm]

I have an automatic Generac unit and it is very nice that it kicks in on its own. Also cycles once a month automatically so it is always ready to go. Since you have already made the investment I'd at least consider finishing it. If it is automatic and you happen to be away from home it will still run which saves losing food in a freezer.

Side note, always good to use the transfer switches. Electric lineman really appreciate homeowners not back feeding into the lines.

 

[Diggin It]

I'm hoping Natural Gas will last a lot longer then buying fuel and storing it, which is why I would only buy a Natural Gas Generator.

Remember that in at least parts of TX, the NatGas pumping stations froze and there wasn't any being delivered in the areas they served.

Propane is an option if can have a big enough tank AND be assured of delivery as you run low.

Diesel may be the better option if you're remote and have need for diesel otherwise, like tractors and machinery. Unfortunately, they're quite a bit more expensive.

For the OP's question, my 100A Generac ATS can be switched manually and I had my portable 8750 GenSet hooked up to it for a few months before the 16Kw unit arrived.

Which brings up another point ... ordering a 22K unit today might mean a delivery date next spring. At one time they were close to six months behind. When I ordered my 16 last November, the estimated delivery was in May. Somehow, it showed up in late December and to this date, no one can figure out why.

 

[arizona98tj]

We built our house on 80 acres almost 6 years ago. Our power comes from the local co-op. Not all of their lines are underground but the line feeding our area is. The co-op gets its power, a mix of wind, solar, coal, and some hydro, from a larger power broker. In the past six years, I can recall 2, maybe 3 times that my house has lost power. I think the longest stretch was maybe 4 hours.

We heat with wood and cook with propane. For what I call the essentials, backup power is needed for pumping water (220V well pump), running the two freezers, and keeping the fridge cold. After those items, we can get by with some lights, the microwave, etc. The pressure tank for the well water isn't very large so that would be the first item to need power whereas the freezers could make it for a few days most likely. They hold our venison, chicken, and some of the garden produce.

I have a 30 HP compact diesel tractor. For around $2K, a PTO-driven generator in the 12KW range can be found online. Those aren't named brands at that price. I typically keep the tractor's fuel tank near full and there is always a 5-gallon jug of diesel in the garage. Keeping an extra 10 gallons on hand wouldn't be difficult. The tractor runs the snowblower in the winter so I always have diesel on hand for it. In contrast, I rarely keep extra gasoline during the winter except for a bit for the chainsaw.

I've flip-flopped over the past several years as to the odds of my needing a backup power system. The past 6 years indicate it is not very likely.....but that is what folks who just went through a 100-year flood probably say too.