House generator questions...second thoughts on whole house system.

[ponytug]

The one major concern I have with a portable in unit is the inability to handle my geothermal heat pump. If we were to lose power in the winter, my only heat source would be my gas fireplace. That may not be enough depending on length of outage.

Have a look at the nameplate for your heat pump and look for "LRA" (Locked Rotor Amps). That is the size that you would need to have at an absolute minimum. The good news? Many of the newer heat pumps use motor controllers that start with very low amperage and ramp up, which greatly reduces the load on the generator (and the size, as LRA can be many times the running amperage).

Some liquid cooled generators can be setup to provide the waste heat to the house as heat, but not many. With a heat pump heating, you would want to deliver the heat to the outside exchanger. If you don't use it often, probably not worth the added expense or hassle.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ultrarunner]

I put in a 20kW diesel generator many years ago and we've never needed it for storms, knock on wood. Did use it last year for a planned 1/2-day outage when the power company was changing transformers on our road.

Prior to owning a generator at this house, we had several severe hurricanes with outages lasting 1-2 weeks at our old house. I still remember what that was like, and feel good knowing we are prepared here at the new house. Winter isn't so bad since we have a good fireplace with a lot of wood stored, but in summer heat/humidity, it can become unbearable real quick without A/C.

The beauty of diesel is that I can easily store enough fuel here for a couple weeks of operation running continuously (55 gal will give me about 5 days of continuous operation). That could be stretched out if we needed to. In fact, I don't anticipate we would run continuously if there was a real crisis. I would probably only run the generator enough to keep us comfortable and safe, and then we could go for many weeks, even months. I normally keep on hand 55 gallons in the generator's tank, and another 25-55 gallons in my transfer tank. I have spare drums to store another 165 gallons if needed. I can get plastic drums for $5 each locally.

Another nice thing about diesel is that I can cycle it through my tractor and RTV so I can keep rotating my supply. But with proper treatment you can store diesel a long time (longest I have gone is about 7 years with no issues).

We are all electric too, with geothermal, and part of my decision for diesel was realizing there was no need to have a propane tank at the house. Dealing with that just for a generator did not make sense to me.

I recall spending about $7K for the generator (ordered/shipped from Central Maine Diesel), and another $1K for electrical parts to install it (I provided all labor). If I remember right, commercial companies wanted about $15K to install the same setup (which included install pad/enclosure/tank, trenching, wiring, hookup, permitting, etc). It seems high, but after putting in the time/labor and doing the research to gain the expertise, I totally agree with their quoted costs.

If you go with a Generac propane generator, look into the water cooled units. They have a much longer service life and they run much quieter and cooler (1800 rpm versus 3600 rpm for the air cooled units).

I see a time when quiet operation will be code mandated in urban areas...

Some are like listening to your neighbor mow 24/7.

My Honda is quiet and strategically placed to serve several...

Mom's neighbor bought the last Home Depot 10k unit and it is literally line of sight 15 feet from her headboard... it was impossible for her to sleep...

She is very much live and let live but the constant drone had her agitated and rattled...

It was enough to convince her to stay with me...

 

[grsthegreat]

In neighborhoods, yes. In rural areas that are prone to power outages……

 

[grsthegreat]

Also, if you have a heat pump and are having trouble starting on a generator, look into adding a SOFT START. they use magic smoke to decrease start up load on the compressor.

Eltwin Hyper | Eltwin

www.hypereng.com

 

[Buggs67]

I moved to South Central PA from North Jersey (on the NYS border). Back in NJ it was not unusual to lose power for 5-10 days (SS Sandy was the worst at 10 days). I had a 5.5kw portable genni and it would take care of the necessary items.

Since moving here we lose power maybe 1 x, 2x a year and it's never been more than 4-5 hrs, usually an hour.
But with Geothermal heat and a well 300' down I'd need a big generator to run the house. Not sure the whole house backup system would be worth the expenditure. But I think I nee about 10-12kw to run the geothermal.

That WINCO unit looks nice but it's $4,500.

 

[bdhsfz6]

I built my house in 1980. For the next 20 years or so afterward, we could count on a dozen or more power outages each year, lasting between 1 and 8 hours. After being out for 10 days due to hurricane Ivan in 2004, I started looking into 18 KW whole house generators. Since we have oil heat, The cost of using a propane powered generator would have been excessive due to the recommended 1000 gallon propane tank.

We already have a 1000 gal. fuel oil tank and it made sense to look into diesel powered equipment. Rather than invest in a stationary unit, I spent considerably less money and bought an 18 KW PTO generator which I power with my 60 HP diesel tractor.

It turns out the generator is more "insurance" than necessity. It's been used exactly once in 10 years. Shortly after the purchase, our local power distribution company (PPL) spent 2.2 billion on improvements to its distribution network and we have only lost power twice since then! I'm glad I didn't spend the extra $$ on a stationary unit!

The generator sits in the barn under a tarp and still looks brand new. I'm actually considering selling it. Of course if I do that, with my luck, the power outages will return.

 

[JESSE1]

I had been using my Miller Trailblazer and running extension cords whenever we had a power outage. Freezer, refrigerator, lights and TV during the summer. Since we have natural gas service I could run our furnace in the winter but the cords were a tripping hazard to walk around. In April of '20 we were without power for 35 hours due to severe storms. Since my mother lives here, 94 and on a walker, I decided to have a whole-house generator installed. We need to be able to run the A/C in the summer. I had a 20,000 watt B&S natural gas unit installed with an automatic transfer switch. Power goes out, generator starts in four seconds and if the power stays out it transfers to the generator in twenty seconds. Works very well. When it got down to -8 last February we lost power early one morning and ran for two hours before the main power came back on. It has started and ran several times this past year.

 

[grsthegreat]

My posts are probably biased, since I service generac whole house systems and iv sold and installed 100’s of them over the years.

so far I can only recall one person say he’s sorry he had a whole house unit installed…that was one guy that was away from home during a week long outage. His unit ran for 1 solid week…he said he had about $30 worth of food saved. Spent a whole lot more on nat gas.

i suggested he add a wifi or cellular unit to his gen, so he could be alerted to outage. Then he could call a friend to cycle his generator. Have not heard back on that one yet.

most, and I mean most, say it’s the best investment they made. It’s nice to have light and heat on a cold, dark, stormy night.

but then again I got my 22kw for nothing. So my only expense was the purchase of a 1000 gal bury propane tank. My unit is now 5 years old and going strong.

 

[Bullwinkle123]

It seems ot me you need to prioritize some things.
1. Do you need the generator? Doesn't sound like it unless your location is in a hurricane or blizzard zone and you want to defend against the severe storm long duration outages (infrequent, but the worst kind).
2. If you need the generator, what do you need to power? Sounds you're happy to pull start or whatever, mostly you need to know how much power you need. Fridge. Furnace in winter. A/C in summer perhaps. Well pump? Etc. That will scope your cost if you've decided you need a generator. I wouldn't dodge a couple of hundred dollars for an underpowered setup if I could avoid it. An overtaxed setup is likely to cost you money, but I'm just guessing.
3. Is the convenience worthwhile? Really depends on you.
4. Are you the sort who routinely worries the fall of civilization is at hand? Get a bigger generator, and hook it up to an underground fuel storage tank.

For me, I have an over-the-top setup, but I lose power multiple times a week, sometimes multiple times a day. I don't know if it's the 10,000 trees on my road trying to hit the wires, or if VT power infrastructure is just bubble gum and baling wire. My generator is the difference between my rural life being shang-gri-la vs worrying about pipes freezing in winter or sleeping in humid 90 degree rooms in summer. I consider my generator to be worth every cent, and that includes the $600 I drop on it for maintenance every two years.

Really it's all so subjective, and depends on your environment. What you describe doesn't sound like it's worth a lot of money. For me, I take comfort in the sub-second switch to generator power that happens frequently. If you have kids or exotic pets who who won't fare well with temperature extremes in a power failure, that's another factor.

Contrast to where I was 20 years ago near the city. Power seldom went out for more than a few hours. Once a year or so. A generator from home depot and and a widowmaker cord were all I needed. I don't recommend that by the way. If you're on town water, you also don't lose water/toilets and stuff, so that's also a factor.

 

[grsthegreat]

It seems ot me you need to prioritize some things.
1. Do you need the generator? Doesn't sound like it unless your location is in a hurricane or blizzard zone and you want to defend against the severe storm long duration outages (infrequent, but the worst kind).
2. If you need the generator, what do you need to power? Sounds you're happy to pull start or whatever, mostly you need to know how much power you need. Fridge. Furnace in winter. A/C in summer perhaps. Well pump? Etc. That will scope your cost if you've decided you need a generator. I wouldn't dodge a couple of hundred dollars for an underpowered setup if I could avoid it. An overtaxed setup is likely to cost you money, but I'm just guessing.
3. Is the convenience worthwhile? Really depends on you.
4. Are you the sort who routinely worries the fall of civilization is at hand? Get a bigger generator, and hook it up to an underground fuel storage tank.

For me, I have an over-the-top setup, but I lose power multiple times a week, sometimes multiple times a day. I don't know if it's the 10,000 trees on my road trying to hit the wires, or if VT power infrastructure is just bubble gum and baling wire. My generator is the difference between my rural life being shang-gri-la vs worrying about pipes freezing in winter or seeping in humid 90 degree rooms in summer. I consider my generator to be worth every cent, and that includes the $600 I drop on it for maintenance every two years.

Really it's all so subjective, and depends on your environment. What you describe doesn't sound like it's worth a lot of money. For me, I take comfort in the sub-second switch to generator power that happens frequently. If you have kids or exotic pets who who won't fare well with temperature extremes in a power failure, that's another factor.

Contrast to where I was 20 years ago near the city. Power seldom went out for more than a few hours. Once a year or so. A generator from home depot and and a widowmaker cord were all I needed. I don't recommend that by the way. If you're on town water, you also don't lose water/toilets and stuff, so that's also a factor.

What type of generator do you h
ave. $600 for maint sounds real high.