House wiring rant

[aczlan]

So, I was replacing Decora switches in the house today with new switches that are not all dirty and messy and what do I find? The previous owner left all of the grounds in these 2-4 gang boxes loose, or the wire from each switchleg connected to one switch.
Apparently he thought that there would be enough grounding from the switch, through the box and into the next switch...
Crazy I tell you.

Aaron Z

 

[JDgreen227]

So, I was replacing Decora switches in the house today with new switches that are not all dirty and messy and what do I find? The previous owner left all of the grounds in these 2-4 gang boxes loose, or the wire from each switchleg connected to one switch.
Apparently he thought that there would be enough grounding from the switch, through the box and into the next switch...
Crazy I tell you.

Aaron Z

How old is the house and wiring? Are the boxes metal or plastic? Do the switches even have a grounding terminal? Sorry, it's hard to picture what you are referring to without some clarity.

What you are seeing cannot be as bad as what I saw in a house recently.

 

[MikeD74T]

JD, What's so wrong with knob & tube wiring ???? MikeD74T

 

[JDgreen227]

JD, What's so wrong with knob & tube wiring ???? MikeD74T

One word: OLD

Would you feel safe living in a house with 120 year old wiring? NOT ME.

 

[om21braz]

JD, What's so wrong with knob & tube wiring ???? MikeD74T

Back to the "good old days", when a cracked insulator might cause interference with your radio reception.

 

[JimRB]

A friend built his house and did his own wiring. His switches broke the white wire, not the black wire. The building inspector saw it, noticed and commented on it and passed it. Some bad stuff out there sometimes. I did not hear about it until after the fact. I would have carried on a bit and strongly suggested wiring it to code.

 

[aczlan]

How old is the house and wiring? Are the boxes metal or plastic? Do the switches even have a grounding terminal? Sorry, it's hard to picture what you are referring to without some clarity.
What you are seeing cannot be as bad as what I saw in a house recently.

The rooms in question were gone through and remodeled a few years back. These are mostly metal boxes with conduit or armored cable connecting them. The wires in conduit have rubber, then cloth around them. Many of the switch legs were replaced with new wire (which has a ground wire), but the wire is just connected to the switch, it is not bonded to the box.
One box in particular is a 3 gang metal box with one 3 way switch and 2 single pole switches.
All the wires ion this box are Romex and the grounds are each connected to one of the switches, or sitting between the switch and the box.
To make it worse, the screws that hold the switch to the box were loose and so there was no sure way to ensure that it was actually grounding.
Another metal box had a ground wire through the hole for the ground screw in the back of the box, then there was a sheetrock screw through the hole to jam the wire in place.

Aaron Z

 

[JDgreen227]

Thanks for clarification. The guy who wired my detached garage told me the best way to connect grounds in a 2, 3, or 4 gang metal box was to connect the grounding wire from each ground screw on a switch or outlet to the back of the metal box using a sheet metal screw and to also connect any ground wires in the Romex cable the same way. He claimed it is a much better connection than using grounding clips.

 

[aczlan]

Thanks for clarification. The guy who wired my detached garage told me the best way to connect grounds in a 2, 3, or 4 gang metal box was to connect the grounding wire from each ground screw on a switch or outlet to the back of the metal box using a sheet metal screw and to also connect any ground wires in the Romex cable the same way. He claimed it is a much better connection than using grounding clips.

I disagree with him, (as did the electrical contractor I worked for whenI was in GA) I think you will get a better connection by twisting the ground wires together (including one screwed to the back of the box with a ground screw if the box is metal) together and clamping them with a crimp sleeve or a wire nut.
The advantage of the crimp sleeve (if your wires are long enough) is that you don't need to add any jumper wires to ground the switches or outlets as the wires can pass through the sleeve and continue to the outlet or switch.

Aaron Z

 

[tractchores]

How old is the house and wiring? Are the boxes metal or plastic? Do the switches even have a grounding terminal? Sorry, it's hard to picture what you are referring to without some clarity.

What you are seeing cannot be as bad as what I saw in a house recently.

I own some of that in a building that was built in 1830, its great as long as you don't touch it, but if you touch it the insulation turns to dust. I'm just glad it was upgraded from the original wiring, which was insulators with uninsulated live wire running between them...

 

[MikeD74T]

One word: OLD

Would you feel safe living in a house with 120 year old wiring? NOT ME.

In my neighborhood there's houses back to the 1600's that still have their first knob & tube wiring. In many ways it's more trouble free than modern wiring. I've never seen a problem with K&T caused by rodents which I've seen plenty of with romex. "modern wire" is cheaper to install thus it's what people are used to seeing. New isn't always better. MikeD74T

 

[om21braz]

This is probably not typical, but I'd say a better grounded method - providing the initial ground (green) lead is properly terminated/grounded. I'd wrap the wire nuts with tape too.

 

[aczlan]

This is probably not typical, but I'd say a better grounded method - providing the initial ground (green) lead is properly terminated/grounded. I'd wrap the wire nuts with tape too.

That or using a crimp sleeve in place of the wirenut is how I was taught to do it and now most professional electricians I have seen do it.
It is a personal preference, but I like to use the Ideal brand "wing" wirenuts (like: http://www.lowes.com/pd_26049-12704-30-441JL_0__?productId=3128373) as I feel that they are less likely to come loose when packed into a box than the ones without the wings on the sides.
Also, Ideal makes a driver for their "wing" wirenuts (like I linked) that lets you spin them on and twist the wires together with a drill (great when joining 12 several gauge wires). A regular 6 point socket will also fit (5/16" IIRC).

Aaron Z

 

[JDgreen227]

This is probably not typical, but I'd say a better grounded method - providing the initial ground (green) lead is properly terminated/grounded. I'd wrap the wire nuts with tape too.

What I don't like about the method illustrated is that it creates a LOT more wires to cram back into the box, and there is the possibility of a bare ground wire touching the hot terminals. When we hired a guy to wire our addition, he left so much excess wire, even with the deep blue plastic boxes, he was using the wood handle of his hammer to compress and severely kink all the excess wire back into the box before screwing in the switch or outlet.

 

[om21braz]

Also, Ideal makes a driver for their "wing" wirenuts (like I linked) that lets you spin them on and twist the wires together with a drill (great when joining 12 several gauge wires). A regular 6 point socket will also fit (5/16" IIRC).

Aaron Z

Sounds like you also have at one time had practically blistered fingertips from twisting on wire nuts for 8+ hours a day.

 

[aczlan]

Sounds like you also have at one time had practically blistered fingertips from twisting on wire nuts for 8+ hours a day.

Wiring a room with 3 4 gang boxes, a couple of 2 gang boxes and a single gang box which collectively contained 3 4 way circuits and a couple of single pole ones gets interesting.
If I didnt have the drill on me, I usually used linesmans pliers to twist the wires together and to twist the wirenuts on. Easier on the fingers and the wrists.

Aaron Z

 

[om21braz]

What I don't like about the method illustrated is that it creates a LOT more wires to cram back into the box, and there is the possibility of a bare ground wire touching the hot terminals.

Certainly a possibilty, more so using an uninsulated ground wire. Yes, the boxes can get very tight. Years before we started using terminal blocks (3-phase applications), we had 20" x 20" x 10" junction boxes full of motor leads, switch wiring, line wires, etc. connections. Sometimes it would take two of us to get the door shut and fastened.

 

[JDgreen227]

Knob and tube doesn't scare me as bad as this attachments do. Back in '88 I purchased a 1949 vintage kit house, the prior owner had hired someone to come in and install a new medicine cabinet, wall outlet, and switch back in '78. In late 2001 I wanted to rewire the bath so I could install a ceiling vent, took the medicine cabinet off, and found this junction box...ALUMINUM, 2X3 inches outside,with all the wiring crammed in. The guy who did the job back in '78 simply ran the beige romex 14 gage inside the splices to add another circuit...when I saw this ugly thing it almost gave me a heart attack. The bare ground wire at the top is what I use to hang it over my workbench, and the rubber covered single wire at the top ran into the basement where it was clamped to a cold water pipe (galvanized)

 

[tallyho8]

Knob and tube wiring was the standard way that unattached garages and outbuildings were wired to homes in our area up until the 1940s.

It is not unusual to still see k&t wiring outside homes today. Wiring on this shed was up but not connected to power until Katrina.

 

[grsthegreat]

Until about 6-8 years ago you weren't required to ground switches. In fact all the older switches came without a ground screw.

The idea is the materials making up the switch were plastic and therefore intrinsically safe. Well further code changes nixed this.

As an electrician i was instructed many moons ago to twist all ground wires together and use a crimp sleeve (if a wire nut is used its supposed to be green colored) . I leave strands of ground wires long enough to attach to ground screw and/or metal box ground point. The least amount of wire and wire nuts in a box the better.

Personally i never pigtail my #14 or #12 wires together during rough wiring, because invariably the mud monkey ,... er drywaller/... will cover a box. by leaving them uncoupled, i can use a tick tracer to find the offending missing box. (My best job to date had 34 missing boxes...including two 4 gang boxes... i should have shot that contractor).