How big might a Hickory tree root ball be?

[Richard]

Backstory: My wifes cousin next door wanted a tree cut down then the root ball dug up.

The tree was probably under 12" diamater (forget). It was a LIVE tree so though I was concerned as always about falling branches, I presumed there would be fewer of them since it was a good tree (in way at road).

I backed my JCB loader/backhoe up to the side I wanted it to fall away from. I dug down on this side as well as the left/right sides, leaving the far side intact. My reasoning was, the far side intact will help hold the tree from falling backwards (my direction) and I would perhaps be able to loosen it up on the back side and then using the force of the hoe, help push it over.

It worked like a charm, exactly as I had hoped.

This in part, is what has me a little worried (I don't want to conclude that they ALL will be this easy!)

Forward to today.... he's got what I think he said, is a hickory tree in his back yard. The only things near it are some other trees, but they're probably 80/100' away. The canopy will hit them, I see no way around that.

We're looking at trying the same method. Dig on one side and push away, allowing the roots to come up on the side I dig on.

So far, I'm not any more uncomfortable with this idea as I would be using a chainsaw. Actually, I'm MORE comfortable with this idea than using a chain saw. Perhaps that's another error that I should guard against.

Regardless.... I've heard that Hickory's can have HUGE root balls and then I've heard it's all dirt.

I don't remember the diamater of this one, so for conversation let's say it's 12" diamater at chest height. Obviously, if it's larger then the root ball will be larger. It's certainly not 24". 18? possibly.

Do Hickory roots run deep, wide, both? Are they particularly tenacious to the ground, not wanting to come up? Do they have a tap root?

Trying to do my due-dilligence ahead of time to minimize surprises to the best I can.

 

[Craig Clayton]

Timber
I would guess that most mid northern trees all have similiar sized roots. I had a Cherry tree that for years we said it has to come down some day because of a split that might form. Well along a wind sheer and torn it half out of the ground and it headed straight for the Hydro Lines and tore them out. The Hydro Lines are the kind that can feed an entire community. The entire area was out for 4 - 7 days. So within the first day I undercut the tree and it feel away from the wires with my( fully insulated steel ratchet hoists )help. I knew the power would not be coming back soon because the area looked like a war zone. The tree was 32" at the base and the root was the size of a chesterfield. I let it dry and poked at the dirt and used 1 saw chain to slice it in pieces. All this was down by hand as it was at a remote property.

Craig Clayton

 

[beenthere]

What is actually going on is a little difficult for me to follow.
I wouldn't use a chainsaw for cutting the roots of a tree as the dirt will raise havoc with the teeth. If I need to cut through roots, I use an axe for that work.

I'd suggest you cut the roots on the one side (away from the fall line desired) then get a long chain or cable several feet up in the tree (i.e 20' ) then pull it over. Use the backhoe to remove the dirt on that side and expose the roots that need chopping. The root ball will come with the tree, and its size won't matter much (except for the clean-up ).

Or, I'd suggest you ask around for some on-sight help that has a bit more experience doing the project.

 

[Baby Grand]

Did somebody say hickory? Beware the taproot.
I include, as personal testimonial, a reprint my post from a while back:

First day on my first ever tractor. The Plant Manager asked me if I could remove a circle of yucca plants with a weedy looking 2" hickory sapling growing out of the center.

My first thought - pluck that sapling out with the FEL. Hitched a chain around the bucket and only managed to lift the rear wheels off the ground. My first lesson in the importance of proper ballasting for the job, but I wasn't taking notes at the time.

Not willing to have my new beast outdone by a weed tree I turned around and hitched a chain to the drawbar and proceded to dig two very deep ruts in the drought savaged lawn with my sharp, new R1s. About this time the Plant Manager was wailing at me "Stop!", which I did, although reluctantly - she probably saved my life.

Went to the toolshed and brought back a shovel. Dug down around the taproot about 18" - it didn't get any smaller. Thinking that it must go clear to China, I snipped it with loppers, threw a rock on top, filled the hole and tried to forget about the whole shameful episode.

-Jim

 

[sweettractors]

Usually the root system is the same size as the top growth on the tree. Ken Sweet

 

[Richard]

What is actually going on is a little difficult for me to follow.

No it's not... I guess I just described it poorly.

Scenario: Healthy tree standing in a field. You want the tree down AND the root ball out.

You can either:

A) cut it down with a chainsaw and dig the root ball out or

B) back up to it with your industrial backhoe/loader with the tree still standing. Dig essentially, one half of the roots up with the backhoe, letting the other half hold the tree from falling in one direction (where you are sitting). Once you reach a wide/deep enough dig on the hole side of the roots, "simply" (hahahaha) push the tree over and let the leverage of the tree falling pop the root ball right out of the ground.

Now, I would not be comfortable doing this with a 36" diameter tree. I would not hesitate with a 4" diamater tree. This one is roughly 12" as I recall and if I'm wrong, probably no more than 18" diameter (at chest height)

I've cut a fair number of trees down with the traditional chainsaw. I have also used method "B" above now once. It was AMAZING how quick the job went, how smooth the tree fell over and how much less digging I had to do since the root ball popped out at the same time.

 

[Richard]

I might add that my backhoe will dig to a depth of 15 1/2'. I don't remember how that equates to horizontal reach but, with the hoe arm folded and put agasint the tree, I can get a fair distance of push with it.

It's not like I'm using a 6' backhoe to extend with.

 

[BrierPatch]

Obviously if you dig out enough it will work. The question is how much can you dig out and still be comfortable with it not falling on you or out of control. If you can get it to lean you get the advantage of the weight of the tree pulling itself over. I had what I believe to be a hickory (10"-12") get blown over in a storm (it had a damaged trunk and snapped off) and thought I would test out my new BH65 backhoe. I dug all around it and could not get it to budge, which took quite a while to do (small backhoe). So I just decided to get my full size TLB (12K - 14K lbs) and just push it over in the hole and drag it out. I hit it and it still didn't budge. You can see the dig marks in the drive where I pushed against it. I ended up digging it out with my full size TLB. So my guess is, it being hickory it has a pretty good tap root and you would have to dig out pretty good around it. You have a pretty big machine so you might have better luck than I did. If it is a fairly symetrical tree (not leaning) you might tie it off with a safety line with tension as a safety measure. I have done this with trees before when cutting them with a chain saw. They were only 3 feet from the side of my garage and I did not want them having a chance to fall back on the garage/house.

 

[Richard]

You have a pretty big machine so you might have better luck than I did.

I just did some looking around on the JCB 1550B

Digging depth 15' 11"
Maximum reach of 23' 7"
Weight 15,510 pounds

As of this moment in time, I am not nervous about the thought of doing this. I however, don't want to get into it and then discover the root ball for a Hickory is not your typical "canopy" sized rootball and that the Hickory tree is the one weird tree in the world who's rootball is three times the canopy...

Point being, I don't know that much about root-balls and don't want to dig to find something different/unique about a hickory rootball. If that happens I can just cut the tree down and dig it out. Having pushed some LARGE pine trees over, the size of this one doesn't scare me any more than I am already scared when it comes to dropping trees. BTW, the pine trees were notched with chainsaw and a thick hinge was left. I then jumped into the pre-positioned backhoe and pushed in the direction the cut already prepared for. I just wanted some FORCE with me to disallow the tree to settle backwards.

That said, I will say that I FEEL more safe when I'm inside my cab rather than standing next to the tree with a chainsaw. Dealing with trees at all makes me nervous, so I'm not trying to sound bravado nor am I a scared weenie. I'm trying to err on appropriately respectful/nervous of something that can squash me like a bug

 

[beenthere]

With your plan of attack, you will do just fine. No need to expect a large rootball to foil your plan.
Keep a watchful lookout for anything falling out of the top of the tree when pushing on it or shaking the tree while digging on the roots. Dead branches can cause a big headache as can broken tops, as well as mess up the wax job on the hood or canopy.
A pic of the tree in the field would help us get a "picture" of what you are up against. As well as pics of the tree removal.

 

[Dutch445]

here's what i found with a quick google search. looks like
a substantial tap root, and from what i have seen with hickory,
the wood is extremely heavy!
not sure which species of hickory you have,
excerpt from :
Carya cordiformis (Wangenh

Rooting Habit- Bitternut hickory develops a dense root system with a pronounced taproot. It is windfirm and can be transplanted more successfully than any other hickory species (20).

Early root growth is primarily into the taproot, which typically reaches a depth of 30 to 91 cm (12 to 36 in) during the first year (32). Small laterals originate throughout the length of the taproot but may die back during the fall. During the second year, the taproot may reach a depth of 122 ern (48 in) and the laterals grow rapidly. After about 5 years or so, the root system attains its maximum depth, and the horizontal spread of the roots is about double that of the branches. By age 10, the height of the top is about four times the depth of the taproot while the spread of the crown branches is only about half that of the root system.

Mature pecan hickory root systems have a deep taproot, with lateral roots emerging at nearly right angles to the taproot, but no major lateral roots. Pecan hickory roots begin to develop just before spring shoot growth. Roots are more responsive to favorable conditions of soil or climate, and conversely more sensitive to adverse conditions. Depending on environmental conditions, there are usually four to eight cycles of root

 

[BrierPatch]

I say do it like you did the last one. dig out half of the roots and push it over. If it won't push over then cut it with a chainsaw with the thick hinge and push it over that way. You then have to dig the root out, but you already have half of it dug out anyway. No real extra time or effort involved.

Good Luck !

 

[Richard]

Welp, here's the rest of the story.

Tree was probably bigger than 12" diameter and probably equal to or less than 18" diameter. My bucket is 24" for reference.

Turns out the root ball of this was bigger than I expected. Not a huge deal. I tried to push it over once/twice early on and it was going NOWHERE. I kept digging and pushed again. I could tell this time that if I just kept some slow pressure on it that I could work it down.

Fell exactly where I wanted it to fall :thumbsup: You will notice in the last picture my wifes uncle's house... This was one thing keeping me a little on my toes and more nervous than the last one I dropped like this.

There was a dose of apprehension with it as anything. I'll admit that I still feel more comfortable doing something like this with some horsepower behind me than standing under same tree with nothing but my wits and (hopefully) quick reflexes should something happen.

The last picture shows the "hinge" on the ground that (hopefully) keeps an idea like this from becoming one of Darwin's awards.

In the LAST picture (looking back at house/hoe) you can see two trees on the other side of the backhoe. The tree on the right with the fork in it...is another one he wants to drop like this.

I'm not so sure about that one though. It is leaning away from this camera position. He PREFERS the tree to be dropped towards the camera (coming at you as you see picture). I can understand why he wants to do that but I'm not quite so sure about that one given the lay of the land. I'd be below it by 3' or so and that takes away some of my height to reach for leverage.

We're still studying that situation. We wanted to use this one as a gauge on difficulty and how easy it might be to 'control' (I use that word loosely)

I figure he's got a big enough mess on his hands for a while... so I'll let him clean this mess up and then we'll discuss the next tree.

If we drop the next (last) tree towards the camera then I might suggest we get some strong rope and tie it off at the top so the 100hp tractor can pull (from 200/300 feet away) while at the same time I can push on my side. If well executed, little doubt that we could put the tree down next to this existing tree. Or, it could turn into a Darwin moment as anything like this can.

 

[beenthere]

Well done. And nice to have the "tools" to handle it.

Sounds like a good plan for the other trees. If you get a long rope in that tree, you won't need anywhere near a 100hp tractor to pull it down. With leverage, and digging the roots as you are doing, a car, pickup, or CUT will handle the pulling. It won't take much especially with you pushing. Even a come-along on the rope will put some pressure on the tree to get it moving in the direction you want it. Just be careful that there are not roots still attached that will let the tree twist off line during the fall.

Good work!

Take that TN red clay off the root ball, and it won't seem so big

 

[jinman]

Brutus wins again!:thumbsup: Nice job Richard. I call the side where I don't dig my "hinge." Just like cutting a tree and controlling where it will fall, this ground hinge keeps you safe.

 

[crazyal]

If I can get my BH close enough that's how I knock trees down if I want to get the root ball out of the ground. I'm usually very accurate doing it that way. I can even guide the tree down to the ground as they don't come crashing down like if cut with a chainsaw.

I also pick the tree up off the ground so I can cut the stump off the tree. I find that by lifting the root ball of the ground with the BH then drop it several times in a row it shakes off a lot of the dirt and rocks.

 

[Richard]

If I can get my BH close enough that's how I knock trees down if I want to get the root ball out of the ground. I'm usually very accurate doing it that way. I can even guide the tree down to the ground as they don't come crashing down like if cut with a chainsaw.

I also pick the tree up off the ground so I can cut the stump off the tree. I find that by lifting the root ball of the ground with the BH then drop it several times in a row it shakes off a lot of the dirt and rocks.

I agree with every word you typed here... I presume you typed them and didn't dictate them to a secretary while she typed them?

 

[schoolsout]

Did somebody say hickory? Beware the taproot.


-Jim

I've got some small hickory trees I've got growing in buckets and the taproot on them is just about as long as the tree itself!
Pretty sure they aren't as long as an older tree, but those **** taproots drill deep.