Egon
Epic Contributor
If the tractors have different HP the specs are not the same.
How do they make several different HP tractors with all the other specs being the same?
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LouNY
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The same basic engine can make the baseline HP, add in piston oil coolers (squirters) a larger radiator and engine oil cooler for the next step up with a touch more boost pressure and fuel for the mid line HP, add in an intercooler and more boost and fuel for the top of the line HP.
The engine will be the same family but will have differences in it for the different HP ratings.
If you would like to see what boost, fuel and rpm can do for HP ratings look at the difference HP ratings of a basic engine just look at a Detroit 4-53,
that engine could be obtained in HP ratings from 103 HP to over 175 HP from the same engine, different injectors, different boost levels and different rpm.
The engine will be the same family but will have differences in it for the different HP ratings.
If you would like to see what boost, fuel and rpm can do for HP ratings look at the difference HP ratings of a basic engine just look at a Detroit 4-53,
that engine could be obtained in HP ratings from 103 HP to over 175 HP from the same engine, different injectors, different boost levels and different rpm.
Sawyer Rob
Super Member
5.9 Cummins, look at the difference in HP between the ones they put in dozers, the ones in trucks and the ones they put in boats...
SR
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Richard
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I think that's an excellent comment.
Case in point: My riding mower (2-cylinder diesel) is currently not working. The field in front of house needs cut. I usually spend 90 minutes/week to use my riding mower to cut this field.
I PREFER to use my finish mower but also have a 15' flexwing.
I'm debating.....do I go get my 72" finish mower, put it behind my 120+ HP International (who's tire stance is wider than the mower) and take 45 minutes to cut it or. do I use the same tractor with the 15' mower, get a lessor cut but only take about 15 minutes to cut the field.
I'm opting for the big tractor and the big mower because it makes little sense for me to waste that power & fuel yanking that 72" mower around.
MechanicalGuy
Platinum Member
I presumed he meant the hydraulic specs, so I answered that.
bmaverick
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I've spent several hours pouring over Yanmar Parts Manuals. There are minor changes of the SAME engine used in machines that are ±8Hp.
1. Diesel Injector Pump
2. Different Injectors
3. Different Air Intake
4. Type of Exhaust Piping and diameter size.
Items 1 & 2 are the most typically done. Then items 1,2,&3 to bump it to the higher Hp level.
Yes, it's basically marketing and little tweaks.
If a person changes out the I.P. (or sometimes just the shims) and adjusts the timing, a few more ponies are gotten on the lesser Hp units to be equal with the mid Hp units. A few hundred spent this way is by far cheaper than buy the higher Hp machine for several thousand more.
1. Diesel Injector Pump
2. Different Injectors
3. Different Air Intake
4. Type of Exhaust Piping and diameter size.
Items 1 & 2 are the most typically done. Then items 1,2,&3 to bump it to the higher Hp level.
Yes, it's basically marketing and little tweaks.
If a person changes out the I.P. (or sometimes just the shims) and adjusts the timing, a few more ponies are gotten on the lesser Hp units to be equal with the mid Hp units. A few hundred spent this way is by far cheaper than buy the higher Hp machine for several thousand more.
DieselBound
Elite Member
Spec to your requirements.
I recently bought a 7' flail. Manufacturer says I need a minimum of 60hp. My Kioti is 55hp. My requirements make it work: my cutting areas aren't very open, lots of trees, and the ground is quite uneven, which means I have to run slower- running slower allows my under-sized tractor to run the flail. I can appreciate having the 5hp more than the 50hp model when I run the AC (while the tractor is working hard with the 7' flail).
No matter what, you'll find that a given tractor isn't powerful enough. It's good to run across this situation because if you never found a match for your tractor then that would mean that you probably over-spec'd it (and you're burning more fuel and, perhaps, running higher maintenance costs). I have encountered such with my Kioti during my shed-move project: 12'x16' shed turned out to be a LOT heavier than anticipated; tractor struggles to lift a side- I was really counting on it doing this but it's not happening as I would have liked- I have found the limits on the Kioti's power! (NOTE: hydraulics are basically spec'd the same across all HP options of the NX series, so this example is a bit off course from the topic's core question; BUT, if I were trying to lift AND running the AC...).
I recently bought a 7' flail. Manufacturer says I need a minimum of 60hp. My Kioti is 55hp. My requirements make it work: my cutting areas aren't very open, lots of trees, and the ground is quite uneven, which means I have to run slower- running slower allows my under-sized tractor to run the flail. I can appreciate having the 5hp more than the 50hp model when I run the AC (while the tractor is working hard with the 7' flail).
No matter what, you'll find that a given tractor isn't powerful enough. It's good to run across this situation because if you never found a match for your tractor then that would mean that you probably over-spec'd it (and you're burning more fuel and, perhaps, running higher maintenance costs). I have encountered such with my Kioti during my shed-move project: 12'x16' shed turned out to be a LOT heavier than anticipated; tractor struggles to lift a side- I was really counting on it doing this but it's not happening as I would have liked- I have found the limits on the Kioti's power! (NOTE: hydraulics are basically spec'd the same across all HP options of the NX series, so this example is a bit off course from the topic's core question; BUT, if I were trying to lift AND running the AC...).
LD1
Epic Contributor
They do indeed intentionally de-tune machines to hit a target HP point.
By and large, I think most of it comes from less informed customers, and competition.
Take my brand of choice for example. Current models I think are the MX5400 and MX6000.
Lets say someone is looking for a 50 HP tractor......and they are looking at a 4052r deere. Then they go into kubota and want to look at something similar. IF kubota only has the MX6000.....and the next step down is an L-series.....kubota might not get a sale.....because it only has a 60 HP tractor to offer. And the "less informed" customer is gonna look at that and say thats an unfair comparison....and he'd have to go back to deere and compare a 60HP machine which is more money. ANd its an ever ending upward spiral.
Regarding "more HP is never a bad thing".....well it depends. The nature of having two identical machines with one turned up a bit....is it drinks more fuel. Comparing the MX5400 and MX6000 tractors....if all one was doing was loader work....ground work like pulling a plow....grapple work doing firewood, etc......then why burn more fuel to get the extra 6 ponies that you aint gonna benefit from. Likewise if its predominately a mowing tractor or some other heavy PTO uses.....then sure you can benefit.
Sure it cost them the same to make. But they still make a profit. Lets say the MX6000 has a profit margin of 30%. IF thats the ONLY model then you make 30% on everyone sold. But if you can make the SAME tractor....cut profit to 20%.....but increase customers and sales its worth it.
All of this is nothing new and has been going on for better than half a century.
By and large, I think most of it comes from less informed customers, and competition.
Take my brand of choice for example. Current models I think are the MX5400 and MX6000.
Lets say someone is looking for a 50 HP tractor......and they are looking at a 4052r deere. Then they go into kubota and want to look at something similar. IF kubota only has the MX6000.....and the next step down is an L-series.....kubota might not get a sale.....because it only has a 60 HP tractor to offer. And the "less informed" customer is gonna look at that and say thats an unfair comparison....and he'd have to go back to deere and compare a 60HP machine which is more money. ANd its an ever ending upward spiral.
Regarding "more HP is never a bad thing".....well it depends. The nature of having two identical machines with one turned up a bit....is it drinks more fuel. Comparing the MX5400 and MX6000 tractors....if all one was doing was loader work....ground work like pulling a plow....grapple work doing firewood, etc......then why burn more fuel to get the extra 6 ponies that you aint gonna benefit from. Likewise if its predominately a mowing tractor or some other heavy PTO uses.....then sure you can benefit.
Sure it cost them the same to make. But they still make a profit. Lets say the MX6000 has a profit margin of 30%. IF thats the ONLY model then you make 30% on everyone sold. But if you can make the SAME tractor....cut profit to 20%.....but increase customers and sales its worth it.
All of this is nothing new and has been going on for better than half a century.
mwemaxxowner
Platinum Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is a somewhat direct relationship between the amount of fuel and air required to make "X" amount of horsepower. Timing and some other things can affect that obviously, but there is at least a rough correlation.
So, I wonder how fair it is to say a 60 HP tractor is going to burn more fuel than a 40 HP tractor would while doing the same job.
If it's doing a job that only requires 30 or 40 horsepower, unless you just have the tractor pegged out for no apparent reason, it's only going to consume 40 HP worth of fuel, because that's all that's being demanded of it.
So, if you're only using 40 HP from your tractor that's capable and tuned for 60hp, is it not going to use about the same amount of fuel as the 40 HP tractor giving you 40 horses.
So, I wonder how fair it is to say a 60 HP tractor is going to burn more fuel than a 40 HP tractor would while doing the same job.
If it's doing a job that only requires 30 or 40 horsepower, unless you just have the tractor pegged out for no apparent reason, it's only going to consume 40 HP worth of fuel, because that's all that's being demanded of it.
So, if you're only using 40 HP from your tractor that's capable and tuned for 60hp, is it not going to use about the same amount of fuel as the 40 HP tractor giving you 40 horses.
LD1
Epic Contributor
Yes....BUT.....
At load...in theory the 60hp tractor will burn 50% more fuel....because it makes 50% more power
Now the BUT....
Size your implements 50% bigger to get done proportionally faster.
Real world example.....I used to mow with a smaller gear tractor and a 6' mower. Now I run a bigger HST and 8' mower. It burns twice the fuel per hour. But....The combination of a bigger mower and HST means I can mow the same jobs roughly twice as fast. So I. Reality.....fuel burned to mow 10 acres is roughly 6 gallons with either machine. But one takes me 6 hours and the other 3.
To buy a bigger tractor and more hp...you have to be able to take advantage of it.
Hence you buy the hp you need. Why run a 100hp tractor to pull a 3-bottom plow when 50hp is plenty? That's inefficient. Either use a smaller tractor, or get a bigger plow to actually make use of the power