How to kill yourself without knowing

[Egon]

All meant in fun and you are probably right, we both are probably wrong, though having never been wrong before, I have no frame of reference

Being wrong may be considered as being right under proper connotation:thumbsup:!

 

[TripleR]

Being wrong may be considered as being right under proper connotation:thumbsup:!

Then I am pretty well covered.

 

[LostInTheWoods]

Being wrong may be considered as being right under proper connotation:thumbsup:!

We haven't even covered parallel universes. Physics supports the existence of infinite parallel universes where every possible outcome of every possible event actually occurs.

So in one of these universes, I can be as reckless as I want, and the outcome will always happen in my favor. No matter what I do, I come out smelling like roses!

Of course, in the nearly limitless number of other universes, I end up as a stain on the ground.

 

[nebraskasparks]

Found some more data on tractor cg and overturns. Very good article that shows how the center of gravity increases in height on the tractor when going up or sideways across hills.

It can be found at:
National Ag Safety Database - Tractor Overturn Hazards

The time to flip a tractor backward is put at 1.5 seconds.

We've had accidents in other industries that show very professional and experienced operators that were in "denial" or "shock" when things went wrong accounting for more time to react.

1.5 seconds is not much time to analyze what's going wrong and to make the correct input.

 

[SpringHollow]

You really have to be anticipating the accident to react in time. And if something else goes wrong other than what you were anticipating, then you are in deep doo doo.

Ken

 

[/pine]

...1.5 seconds is not much time to analyze what's going wrong and to make the correct input....

if this is in regard to rear axle torque...the fault lies with under-estimating the resistance...and IMO 1.5 seconds may be slow...and in these cases there is no time to react...let alone analyze anything...

I think there is a big difference between realizing (acknowledging, analyzing and reacting) when the center of gravity is reaching the point of being on the verge of tipping a tractor ("pucker factor")...and not realizing that the pulling torque of the tractor is not able to overcome the resistance in flat, forward pulling situation...and the torque flips the tractor backwards

 

[TripleR]

Think I will just sell my stuff and hire it done or buy a nerf tractor.

 

[nebraskasparks]

Don't sell your stuff Larry!!!!

The article is excellent because it documents that the front end of a tractor can move in 3/4ths of a second to the point of NO RETURN. This is fast in my book for anyone above the age of 50. The other 3/4ths of second allows you to utter something I think. That's on dry ground by the way...I'm sure it can move quicker with a slippery surface.

The other thing it cites is that the speed at which you travel magnifies the cg shift significantly.

For my own peace of mind I'm trying to get a handle on the CG and rules of thumb that will keep us out of the headlines especially with the FEL. These CUT's are extremely strong for their size and we have a lot of new tractor operators on TBN along with guys like me that are moving from ancient to new equipment.

I haven't found the formulas yet in regard to FEL loading and the affects on CG but if it takes a lot of looking through the manure in the box to find that gift pony I'm going to find it. It's gotta be out there somewhere.

A lot of the turnover/flip accidents that kill are being done on older machines that don't have rops etc and I can relate to that with the near miss I had on my old ford. I guess that's why I'm into this in a big way.

It really bothered me to see guys talking on TBN about what kind of protection they get with the ROPS not fully up. Good G-d...are these guys serious???

It brings back memories of having equipment that will save your keyster and not using it. Every fighter pilot I knew years ago would talk about the time that they landed and went to raise the guard that covered the ejection seat handle and found that they had flown the whole mission with the ejection handle guard already up...meaning that they wouldn't have had the protection had they wanted it and accidents never happen when you think it's going to happen and they always happen to that other poor miserable sod???

My aim is to condense all these good articles into one source/posting that the folks at TBN can use and enjoy their equipment and not show up in an obituary other than dying in old age while viewing TBN with a cup of coffee at their side!

 

[TripleR]

OK Greg, you have convinced me to keep them.

Having been in more car and motorcycle wrecks (no one calls them "accidents" anymore), I know all too well it "can" happen to me and how quickly.

I have been operating tractors for over fifty years and like to think I know my situation quite well taking into consideration experience, frequency and type of use, physical and mental abilities. I am to the point where I have absolutely no trouble climbing down and having one of my sons do something with which I am uncomfortable.

I made the very difficult decision last year to park my Harley though I can't stand to sell it and spend much more time "in" my Rhino than "on" my Grizzly.

I will hopefully be driving my tractors for many more years, but will continue to evaluate what I can do safely. Such is the journey through life and it's been a real hoot.:thumbsup:

 

[LostInTheWoods]

So. What have we learned.

First, nebraskasparks gets an A+ for genuine concern. He's done a lot of work researching articles and drawing from his own experiences in a heart-felt attempt to save us from ourselves.

Second, its easy to dismiss those who question our closely-held personal beliefs and write them off as just short of inbred troglodytes (not pointing fingers, I can be as guilty as the next guy). Thing is, having grown up in the heart of "Bubba Country", I'd wager Bubba (likely a third- or fourth-generation farmer) could out-tractor most of us without breaking a sweat. His work is the payoff of compounded interest on a lifetime investment of sweat-equity behind these machines.

Third, we are arguing over the obvious. Situations we are prepared for have a shorter reaction time than those for which we are not prepared for. Got it.
It doesn't matter if it takes 5 seconds, or 0.5 seconds. When the truly unexpected occurs, doo-doo is likely to follow.

Fourth, mountain gorillas are real b@$&^#*s, and are plotting to overthrow us, but I can't go into more detail on an unsecured blog.

Lastly, it never hurts to have a reminder to be safe out there. Even the best professionals in any endeavor can make mistakes, especially when they are tired or in a hurry. Gentle reminders usualy suffice. Some of us start to tune out after a while.

Best wishes and safe tractoring, gentlemen.

 

[LostInTheWoods]

Think I will just sell my stuff and hire it done or buy a nerf tractor.

TripleR...you might be interested in this model...

 

[TripleR]

TripleR...you might be interested in this model...

If they make it in a cab model with a drool cup, I'm there.:thumbsup:

 

[nebraskasparks]

I'm with TripleR

 

[nebraskasparks]

Check out Earplug's reference to human reaction time...written by a PHD

Visual Expert Human Factors: Driver Reaction Time

He states 1.5 seconds used as an average for a Simple Reaction Time. Throw in a few different variables and I'll bet we can get to 5 seconds without too much trouble.

National Ag Safety Data Base says that you can flip backward and complete the disastrous maneuver in 1.5 seconds. .... 3/4 of a second is the point of no return on most tractors. That's on level, dry ground....no FEL.

Safe to say that most of us that aren't young any more and that without a rops AND a seat belt...we would be a mort. (That's if my Ag math of subtracting 1.5 from 1.5 equals 0)

Think I'll go back to using my hand tools in the garden:laughing:

 

[brin]

I'm going with the safety first motto ...there is no reason at all to take any chance..whatever it is I am doing can just get done by someone else on my dime if I think the skill level required is above my pay grade or the machines and equipment I have...

 

[tungularafishcamp]

Sometimes Bob, you can't get someone else to do it and that's where I find it nice to be a little older. I can justify slowing down enuff to figure out a easier, safer, generally slower way to do it and it's ok cause I am an old fart now or at least that's what my kids tell me. I am putting up a 26x50x16 steel arch truss building solo and at first I was making a whole arch picking it up half way with the tractor and then hauling it up with a bridle the rest of the way. Did the first 2 that way and was lucky I didn't crumple one or worse. Decided since I am an old fart I would just put one piece at a time except for the bottom 2 and it is way safer:thumbsup:and way slower:confused3:Oh well

 

[Soundguy]

problem with all that is that it's an 'average' range. that means theres a grouping of quite slow 10 second response people in there.. and some quite fast .5 second people in there.

1.5seconds probably isn't enough time for the 'slow' person to even realize there is an upset occuring untill the emt shows up.. on the other hand.. the guy that has good .5 second reaction time may not know exactly what is occuring.. but knows SOMETHING is occuring.. and if he's got a good action/reaction plan.. IE.. STOMP the clutch on all faults type programming.. then he might just be ok.

soundguy

Check out Earplug's reference to human reaction time...written by a PHD

Visual Expert Human Factors: Driver Reaction Time

He states 1.5 seconds used as an average for a Simple Reaction Time. Throw in a few different variables and I'll bet we can get to 5 seconds without too much trouble.

National Ag Safety Data Base says that you can flip backward and complete the disastrous maneuver in 1.5 seconds. .... 3/4 of a second is the point of no return on most tractors. That's on level, dry ground....no FEL.

Safe to say that most of us that aren't young any more and that without a rops AND a seat belt...we would be a mort. (That's if my Ag math of subtracting 1.5 from 1.5 equals 0)

Think I'll go back to using my hand tools in the garden:laughing:

 

[rd_macgregor]

Technically, I think that first moment of realization when things go disastrously wrong is called an "OhNosecond".

It amazes me that some folks will fret over trivial risks (like pesticides in food or cell phone radiation) then hop on a tractor and head into the woods or across the hillside with no seat belt and ROPS folded down.

BOB

 

[jonyyuma]

Gentlemen, I love reading this site. I might be from the South, but show no shame to Bubba, or Yankees whom write. For I too have walked in the shadow of Death, and do fear Evil. Point being, had that ole 8N raise up in a nano-second, reaction time is blurry.Still reading to not-become a posting in the obit column. Enjoy today, how many more do you have coming? Jy.

 

[nebraskasparks]

Summing up the thread to date.

We have data that says we can flip a tractor to a point of no return in 3/4 of a second on dry level ground doing things we shouldn't be doing. We'll be on our back in another 3/4 of a second which means the total maneuver takes 1.5 seconds and can be "much quicker" provided the surface conditions are not dry, the ground is not level etc.

We've documented that it can take up to 5 seconds to react to a startling situation that we have not anticipated.

Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein's theories apply to tractors and aircraft in many of the same ways.

Documentation is as follows:

CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE STUDY OF THE DYNAMICS OF AGRICULTURAL
TRACTORS EQUIPPED WITH FRONT-END LOADER AND REAR FORKLIFT LOADER
Simion Popescu, Nastase Sutru
Transilvania University of Brasov/Romania, Faculty of Alimentation and Tourism
simipop38@yahoo.com, sutru_nastase@yahoo.com

www.harristechnical.com/articles/human.pdf

Driver Reaction Time by Dr. Marc Green

Personal experience with F-4 accident from 250 feet

Jerry Miculek - S&W Demo - Parte 1 - Bing Videos

National Ag Safety Database - Tractor Overturn Hazards

Visual Expert Human Factors: Driver Reaction Time