HP differences out of same engine???

[browns40]

Good topic...

Seems like they come out with "the motor" then either reduce or improve the efficiency of intake (& exhaust?) to round out their lineup... then price according to horsepower rather than real-economy value added to the machine (i.e. $2k jump for $800 parts & labor).

JD 3x20's are an extreme example, ranging from 29 to 44 hp out of the same block... 4x20's the same way... I know turbo/fuel delivery tweaking is how they are getting more & more efficient ratings in the "enhanced" versions, but haven't paid attention to if they have (or have needed) to increase the exhaust flow.

I think "more in & out" had always been the way folks could squeak a little (or a lot!) more out of their cubic inches before the days of computer control & fuel injection... larger carburetor, double carburetor, polished manifold, larger manifold, better camshaft, larger exhaust, double exhaust, etc... right up until she blows!

Heck, just a chip now can give people major gains in the automotive world... still is same principle though: what's in, what's the efficiency, what's the timing, what's out...

 

[SkyPup]

I guess the next question is how hard is it to up rate a de-rated diesel?

Just screw on the next size larger nozzle orifices onto your injectors.

It will use more fuel, it will smoke more, you'll pollute the air more, and you'll have to watch out running it under a heavy load to avoid overheating the combustion chamber.

 

[Spark_man]

It may even be simpiler than that. I have a Predator tuner for my D-Max and can push the HP up to over 100 hp over stock with no other mods. I could even go higher by adding a larger exhaust and improving the intake.

 

[SkyPup]

You can advance the injection timing by 5 crank degrees too, it's retarded by that amount to reduce NOx emissions at the factory.

 

[dfkrug]

I have a Predator tuner for my D-Max and can push the HP up to over 100 hp over stock with no other mods.

What is a Predator tuner? Do automotive Diesels like yours use electronic
injection controls? If so, this may be the direction that JD is taking with their
new Perkins engines for the 4000 series.

The Yanmars (JD 3000 series) still are have no electronics in the inj
system, as far as I know. My 96 Yanmar 3TNE84RJ (JD 955) can
be adjusted for inj timing only. It is 1.5-liter and rated at 33hp. Other
1.5 liter engines are rated as low as 28hp, including the turbocharged
Mahindra (30hp). Problem is each is rated at diff RPM. And the Mahindra
HAS to be higher than 30hp.

 

[RobJ]

Just screwing on an injection nozzle with larger spray orifices onto the stock injector is good for 10-20% increase in power....

This can't be done on our Bosch type systems. All the metering is done at the injection pump. All the injector does is break pressure at about 2000psi (whatever the spec is) and atomize the fuel. In a bosch system different tips are for different applications.

But in a system like the Ford PSD, the computer controls the amounts and the fuel is metered at the injector or (I don't work on these) the computer can control the fuel in the pump.

Either way our little kubotas don't have a computer and the fuel is controlled by the governor (mechnical).

Turning up/down the fuel is the way to get more hp out of a diesel. But these same size engines could also have head, valve, cooling, mods to allow for more hp. Or yes they could be simply be turning the fuel up or down, but the more fuel the more heat that the engine has to get rid of.

 

[RobJ]

What is a Predator tuner? Do automotive Diesels like yours use electronic
injection controls? If so, this may be the direction that JD is taking with their
new Perkins engines for the 4000 series.

Yep...

I imagine so but I really have no reason why. I would think tractors are rated for continous loads. But an electronic gismo can allow them to advertize more hp, thus increase the price of your next tractor!

 

[SkyPup]

This can't be done on our Bosch type systems. All the metering is done at the injection pump. All the injector does is break pressure at about 2000psi (whatever the spec is) and atomize the fuel. In a bosch system different tips are for different applications.

But in a system like the Ford PSD, the computer controls the amounts and the fuel is metered at the injector or (I don't work on these) the computer can control the fuel in the pump.

Either way our little kubotas don't have a computer and the fuel is controlled by the governor (mechnical).

Turning up/down the fuel is the way to get more hp out of a diesel. But these same size engines could also have head, valve, cooling, mods to allow for more hp. Or yes they could be simply be turning the fuel up or down, but the more fuel the more heat that the engine has to get rid of.

WRONG -> all you have to do is remove the injectors and install larger nozzle orificies. This allows a larger squirt of fuel into the combustion chamber during the exact same time that the injection crank window is open.

The fuel pump does NOT meter the amount of fuel injected per individual injection stroke, the injector needle does.....

 

[RobJ]

WRONG -> all you have to do is remove the injectors and install larger nozzle orificies. This allows a larger squirt of fuel into the combustion chamber during the exact same time that the injection crank window is open.

The fuel pump does NOT meter the amount of fuel injected per individual injection stroke, the injector needle does.....

Well I'll have to say I knew this was coming....but

DOUBLE WRONG!!! If all is done in the injector then why is the governor in the full pump? Why is there a rack in the pump that moves with the fuel position lever and governor? Why when I slowly pull my shut off lever the engine will slowly lose rpm as if the fuel is being shut off?

The only thing in a bosch type injector is a check ball(or push rod as it may be called), spring, some shims and the tip. When the pressure overcomes the spring and ball, fuel slips by and is atomized out of the tip. Simple. The shims are used to allow the fuel to go past at a certain PSI built up by the pump. If the spec is 2000psi and the injector is set for 1800 or 2300psi, then the timing will be off.

Here is a little something from my shop manual...
■ Pump Element
The pump element (1) is consist of the plunger (3) and cylinder (2).
The sliding surfaces are super-precision machined to maintain injection pressure at engine low speeds. Since the driving face (7) fits in the control sleeve, the plunger (3) is rotated by the movement of the control rack to increase or decrease fuel delivery.

There are injectors that do what you descibe, but not these little Bosch style pumps. Those systems are generally called common rail. Moderate pressure is maintained in the fuel lines, the injector puts the fuel under high pressure and sprays it. In simple terms look at the old Detriot Diesel 671 or 471's. And actually the tip itself is is used to simply spray the fuel.

Below is a picture of a basic injector testing tool. Fill the cup with diesel, attache the injector, use the handle to build pressure and watch the gauge. Attached is the complex injector in a Bosch type fitted L2500.

I don't know anything about DNA, but I do know a little about this..

 

[SkyPup]

TRIPLE WRONG -> So why is the fuel overflow from each injector being fed back to the fuel tank with warm fuel then?

Simple, because more fuel is being supplied by the pump to each injector than what a single injection event is capable of injecting.

That is why simply adding larger orifice injector nozzles allows a larger cubic volume of fuel to be injected each time resulting in more torque and horsepower.