HST clutch purpose

[TripleR]

Neither my FWD nor my HST range selection is easier with or without using the clutch, so most of the time I don't even use it. I have used it to allow my bush hog to spool up, but have also used my PTO lever to feather it in.

 

[bstrom]

Huh - my B2620 will grind if I don't use the clutch to change between L,M,H ratios. The manual says to use it for shifting between 2 and 4 wheel drive but it doesn't seem to do anything there. I don't use my PTO yet, I need some money to buy a chipper.

 

[SmallTimeCountry]

I would certainly have to agree with KUBIE TWO and Diez Nutz. I have been raised on a gear driven tractor my entire life. So, switching over to an HST is quite the change and tough to get used to. I'm sure lack of experience has a lot to do with it. And maybe tractor time will make the transitions smoother. However, the times that I was talking about with the tractor wanting to tip, with or without a load in the bucket, is when I had a 60" LandPride mower hooked up to the rear and stopping like I did, you only do once. I have enough experience to know not to drive around with a high loaded bucket. The problem is the second that you begin to take your foot off the HST peddle, it will stop on a dime. With these HSTs, they are really hard to feather from forward to reverse because the **** peddle is huge. Unless you have a foot like Shaq, it's tough to rock your foot back and forth.

Kubie and Diez if I got this right, your saying that the only time a clutch should be used with an HST is when engaging the PTO or shifting from L-M-H gears?

 

[DiezNutz]

And maybe tractor time will make the transitions smoother ... The problem is the second that you begin to take your foot off the HST peddle, it will stop on a dime. With these HSTs, they are really hard to feather from forward to reverse because the **** peddle is huge. Unless you have a foot like Shaq, it's tough to rock your foot back and forth.

As you suspect, all you need is more time/practice with it - it will become second nature. Just like the first time you learned to drive a clutch, you had to learn to let it out just as smooth as you pushed it in, so will you learn to smoothly transition the HST pedal from F or R back to neutral.
Even though the pedal is larger than (most) boots, you should be able to find one spot that allows you to keep your foot in the same place, but while you're getting used to it, you find find it easier to slide your foot forward to go forward, and backward to go backward.
The idea is to try to keep your foot on the pedal at all times, you shouldn't ever just "take it off" while moving.

Kubie and Diez if I got this right, your saying that the only time a clutch should be used with an HST is when engaging the PTO or shifting from L-M-H gears?

I would word it like this:

With your live PTO, the only time your clutch needs to be used is to engage/disengage the PTO.

You may choose to use the clutch to shift L-M-H range if it makes it easier/smoothier to do so, though it shouldn't be necessary if the HST pedal is in the neutral position. (in the case of HST's without a clutch, this is how it has to be done). No harm in that, though if you're on a hill you may want to cover the brakes with your right foot because you will freewheel.

 

[k0ua]

My Kubota L3400 is as smooth as silk transitioning from forward to reverse, I do it very rapidly when smoothing out the gravel with my loader. You have to learn to put your foot flat on the treadle and rock back and forth, You will not have the range of motion that you would have if you put you toe or heel on the parts of the treadle that jut out to the right from the treadle, but you don't need it for fast back and forth movement. I put my toe on the extended treadle part when I am wanting to move fast so that I can easily stomp the pedal all the way to the stopper bolt. The first day with a Hydo Tractor I put the pedal all the way down and then took my foot off of it, and learned real fast that was like stomping on the brakes!. just learn to feather it. This is the beauty of a Hydro-stat is to make rapid back and forth movements without thinking about them. The Loader controls and the hydro control become totally automatic, the primary task is watching what you are doing with the work, and where the tractor is positioned, so you don't hit anything. All of that doesn't come the first day. I put my wife on the L3400 about a week ago, and let her play in the gravel pile, Of course she is a beginner, and made all of the beginner mistakes, But with some time she will make a good OP. The only times I use the clutch is to start the tractor, engage the PTO and shift ranges.
James
K0UA

 

[ccsial]

The only times I use the clutch is to start the tractor, engage the PTO and shift ranges.
James
K0UA

Don't need the clutch to shift ranges. Just be sure to stop. My L3400 manual says that if the range lever won't shift, press the HST pedal slightly while engaging. Can't do that with the clutch in.

If the tractor is stopped the gears are too. If it won't shift the gears are tooth to tooth. Pressing the HST pedal moves the gears a bit to an engagement point.

 

[KubieTwo]

The problem is the second that you begin to take your foot off the HST peddle, it will stop on a dime. With these HSTs, they are really hard to feather from forward to reverse because the **** peddle is huge. Unless you have a foot like Shaq, it's tough to rock your foot back and forth.

Kubie and Diez if I got this right, your saying that the only time a clutch should be used with an HST is when engaging the PTO or shifting from L-M-H gears?

I wear a size 12 boot, so spanning forward/rev is not a problem and I can rock my foot easily. I think a size 10 is about the minimum requirement to easily span, as supported when my brother uses the tractor. Neither of us has a problem smoothly changing direction. My wife has a smaller foot and has a little more difficulty, but has learned to do so pretty well.

It is indeed a learned skill. I am sure you have read complaints about the RTV "abrupt stops", but my wife and my 9 year old grand daughter drive the unmodified RTV1100 with absolutely no difficulty in smoothly slowing, stopping, or changing ranges. Yes, one could get thrown into the windshield by immediately taking your foot completely off the throttle, but you could do the same by stomping the brake in your car/truck, and you probably don't. ...a practiced, learned skill.

As far as when I use the clutch, it is to start the tractor, to engage the PTO and sometimes to change ranges. The old B only has two ranges and doesn't always cooperate in range change without the clutch. Because it only has two ranges, I use it in H as much as possible and often already have it under a load when H proves not quite up to the task, so it is easier and faster to dump the clutch and change. Most other times, when I know I need L or H prior to having its ears pulled back (LOL) I can shift without the clutch. I can make any other move with forward/reverse pedal...and move millimeters if I chose to do so. (I also brake steer using my left foot ...size 12 boot.)

I hope that helps with your questions.

 

[k0ua]

Don't need the clutch to shift ranges. Just be sure to stop. My L3400 manual says that if the range lever won't shift, press the HST pedal slightly while engaging. Can't do that with the clutch in.

If the tractor is stopped the gears are too. If it won't shift the gears are tooth to tooth. Pressing the HST pedal moves the gears a bit to an engagement point.

good info, thanks, one less reason too use the clutch:laughing:
James K0UA

 

[fredhargis]

Huh - my B2620 will grind if I don't use the clutch to change between L,M,H ratios. The manual says to use it for shifting between 2 and 4 wheel drive but it doesn't seem to do anything there. I don't use my PTO yet, I need some money to buy a chipper.

Same with my B2920, the manual says to use the clutch for the PTO, range change, and moving into 4 WD. After reading this thread I had to go check to make sure I had remembered it correctly.

 

[SmallTimeCountry]

Diez and Kubie-

Excellent advice and I truly appreciate the information. It's been raining out here consistantly for the last few days but as soon as the sun comes back out, I will give all your advice a shot. Thanks again.

 

[KubieTwo]

Don't need the clutch to shift ranges. Just be sure to stop. My L3400 manual says that if the range lever won't shift, press the HST pedal slightly while engaging. Can't do that with the clutch in.

If the tractor is stopped the gears are too. If it won't shift the gears are tooth to tooth. Pressing the HST pedal moves the gears a bit to an engagement point.

I would agree with part of what you say. I CAN shift ranges without the clutch by coming back to neutral position on the pedal to take the load off, move lever thru neutral to desired range, rock pedal as necessary to line up gear teeth, and go. I can also drop the load by pushing in the clutch, I move lever, if I get resistance as in gears not meshed, I can indeed both feather pedal and use clutch to mesh gears, and continue. For me and this particular tractor, this is the fastest method to shift if it is already under load. There are many times when I push the clutch and shift, it meshes with no other movement, and I barely miss a beat as I grab the load in L (as an example).

I might well drive YOUR tractor exactly as you state you do, or I might try and find that my way works best for me. I have driven enough gear tractors and non-synchronized transmissions to know that they are not all exactly the same. I have always been able to find something that worked for me and have driven tractors that many others had difficulty shifting, or at least I kept pulling while they stopped. Feel free to drive your tractor any way you wish. If it works for you, that is all that matters.

When the question was asked what I use the clutch for, this is still my answer. Sometimes I use it to change ranges and if you NEVER use your clutch to change, I would bet if we were both dragging logs with identical tractors, at the end of the day, I would have moved more logs than you. That is just an opinion, and this is not a log dragging race, so whether people use the clutch to shift is up to them. It can be done either way. Sometimes I cut meat with a fork and sometimes I use my knife. One can always debate whether this is "correct."

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Kubie and Diez if I got this right, your saying that the only time a clutch should be used with an HST is when engaging the PTO or shifting from L-M-H gears?

HST Kubotas have a single plate dry clutch that will not stand up to slipping. Keep clutch use to a minimum, or you may end up replacing it.

 

[_RaT_]

So your saying you put your whole foot on the HST pedal rather than just using the toe or heel at one time? I find I can be so much more precise with my heel on the floor board using the ball of my foot to use the forward movement. I can also smooth out the rough roads with that "seat of the pants" feel you get by feeling your way with the response you get from the front axle by instantly adjusting the HST pedal. I simply cannot do that with my whole foot on the pedal. I have size 13.

I wear a size 12 boot, so spanning forward/rev is not a problem and I can rock my foot easily. I think a size 10 is about the minimum requirement to easily span, as supported when my brother uses the tractor. Neither of us has a problem smoothly changing direction. My wife has a smaller foot and has a little more difficulty, but has learned to do so pretty well.

It is indeed a learned skill. I am sure you have read complaints about the RTV "abrupt stops", but my wife and my 9 year old grand daughter drive the unmodified RTV1100 with absolutely no difficulty in smoothly slowing, stopping, or changing ranges. Yes, one could get thrown into the windshield by immediately taking your foot completely off the throttle, but you could do the same by stomping the brake in your car/truck, and you probably don't. ...a practiced, learned skill.

As far as when I use the clutch, it is to start the tractor, to engage the PTO and sometimes to change ranges. The old B only has two ranges and doesn't always cooperate in range change without the clutch. Because it only has two ranges, I use it in H as much as possible and often already have it under a load when H proves not quite up to the task, so it is easier and faster to dump the clutch and change. Most other times, when I know I need L or H prior to having its ears pulled back (LOL) I can shift without the clutch. I can make any other move with forward/reverse pedal...and move millimeters if I chose to do so. (I also brake steer using my left foot ...size 12 boot.)

I hope that helps with your questions.

 

[rScotty]

So your saying you put your whole foot on the HST pedal rather than just using the toe or heel at one time? I find I can be so much more precise with my heel on the floor board using the ball of my foot to use the forward movement. I can also smooth out the rough roads with that "seat of the pants" feel you get by feeling your way with the response you get from the front axle by instantly adjusting the HST pedal. I simply cannot do that with my whole foot on the pedal. I have size 13.

Well, I have to agree with your method. It may be due to how rough the land is. Our land is rough and steep and I find the tractor operates much more smoothly and controllable with the heel planted and using the ball of the foot for F/R. I've tried it by leaving my foot in place, but any bounce is instantly translated into a change of pace.

Two years ago when first comparing TLBs, I found that the foot control layout varied. the JD110 seemed to be set up for the planted heel method where the M59 was set up for the foot on the pedal method. Either one can work either way, but for me the JD layout was the more comfortable.

But that wasn't enough by itself to determine the vote. We ended up buying the M59.
rScotty

 

[DiezNutz]

So your saying you put your whole foot on the HST pedal rather than just using the toe or heel at one time?

That's what I do. For loader work especially, when moving back & forth, it seems to be the fastest, most precise, and most comfortable method, to simply leave your foot in place and rock it. Otherwise you're constantly picking your foot up and moving it, and repositioning it, and that will tire your leg out after a while. I also had issues getting either my heel or toe caught under the opposite end of the pedal I was trying operate.

I find I can be so much more precise with my heel on the floor board using the ball of my foot to use the forward movement. I can also smooth out the rough roads with that "seat of the pants" feel you get by feeling your way with the response you get from the front axle by instantly adjusting the HST pedal. I simply cannot do that with my whole foot on the pedal. I have size 13.

I bet you could have, if you had started out with your foot flat on the pedal, but now that you've gotten used to doing it your way, it would be really hard to change at this point.
It was a little awkward at first for me to do it this way, but quickly became second nature. Going in reverse mostly, but I think all it took was for my ankle to limber up and my leg muscles to get used to the idea.

I've tried it both ways, it really just comes down to personal preference. I would encourage anyone new to the HST to at least give the "foot-flat-on-the-pedal" method an honest try.

P.S. - I wear 11.5. I would think a larger foot would actually help. (?)

 

[k0ua]

You know, I have wondered if a person with limited ankle motion would have a problem with the foot flat on the treadle method. Old age and arthritis does take its toll. When I am doing loader work and going back and forth quickly, it is foot flat on treadle pedal, but when moving mostly forward, it is the heel on the floor, toe on the pedal method for me.
James K0UA

 

[DiezNutz]

You know, I have wondered if a person with limited ankle motion would have a problem with the foot flat on the treadle method. Old age and arthritis does take its toll.

That's a good point. I'm not yet suffering from either of those things, and I know my own ankle had to loosen up some.

 

[_RaT_]

Yeah, its what ever works for you. I tried the whole foot on the pedal with both the old style boomerang and the new style that seems made for a planted heel. I suppose for many of us, having your heal planted comes natural being that with a gas pedal, a brake pedal or even a clutch pedal in your car is pretty much operated that way. I find the difference in speed to be a non issue. Both are so quick.

That's what I do. For loader work especially, when moving back & forth, it seems to be the fastest, most precise, and most comfortable method, to simply leave your foot in place and rock it. Otherwise you're constantly picking your foot up and moving it, and repositioning it, and that will tire your leg out after a while. I also had issues getting either my heel or toe caught under the opposite end of the pedal I was trying operate.


I bet you could have, if you had started out with your foot flat on the pedal, but now that you've gotten used to doing it your way, it would be really hard to change at this point.
It was a little awkward at first for me to do it this way, but quickly became second nature. Going in reverse mostly, but I think all it took was for my ankle to limber up and my leg muscles to get used to the idea.

I've tried it both ways, it really just comes down to personal preference. I would encourage anyone new to the HST to at least give the "foot-flat-on-the-pedal" method an honest try.

P.S. - I wear 11.5. I would think a larger foot would actually help. (?)

 

[johnrex62]

I am very new to it and find I am switching back and forth without realizing it. On long flats, my heel goes to the floor and when I put it back on the pedal I tend to lift my foot to the brake pedal when I want to go forward. If I can remember to keep it on the HST pedal I am good going forward and backward.

 

[KubieTwo]

HST Kubotas have a single plate dry clutch that will not stand up to slipping. Keep clutch use to a minimum, or you may end up replacing it.

You would be correct about slipping ANY clutch....if I were slipping it. Many a clutch PACK has been ruined by slipping it. Onward...one last time.

I paid a little more attention to my exact technique and the primary action is, once need of range change is made, to take the load off the transmission with the clutch, which allows the transmission to cleanly come out of gear with no load. (I could tell you why I don't want to "de-mesh" under load but will spare everybody my opinion on this, however, it is completely disengaged when I am coming into neutral.) In the brief moment the tractor has slowed enough that the range change gears mesh in whatever direction, up or down. The change is completed without grind and the clutch is already out when this takes place. When I know the gears are firmly bottomed I am back on the HST pedal and pulling. Most of this is intuitive, happens smoothly, and happens quickly. Much more quickly than I could do with the HST movement alone, and don't be too quick to sell me short on that one either. That is the way I learned to drive, and I do it well. I may not do as good a job at explaining it, so fault that if you like.

This technique is similar to that used to drive other types of equipment with non-synchronized transmissions to get gear changes completed rapidly to keep the load moving. When I was growing up, we could not afford to slip clutches or knock teeth out of gears, so you can mark that one off your list as well. Anything we could afford to buy was already worn out when we got it, so abuse was not an option. Far too many of you have no idea what I am talking about on the transmission or "worn out" fronts, so I am putting this one to bed.

In that vein, I will use this post to cover one last question asked, then be done...

Yes I span for/rev with my foot and have never noticed that I have a hard time with control. Most of the time when I am really bouncing, precise control is not that much of an issue anyway. When I need micro control, I am NOT bouncing so have what I feel is any level of precision I need. I don't recall ever having to move my heel or toe to the floorboard. When I learned to drive I was too short to reach the accelerator while seated so I leaned my butt against the seat and changed which leg I balanced with to clutch or accelerate. I could not get my heel on the floor AND mash the accelerator, so I guess I adapted to what I had. Try downshifting a non-sync transmission with that handicap. I had to rev up too much in neutral to have enough rpm left when I got back to the clutch to mesh drive gears to driven. Range change is to mesh drive gears to driven and pick up the load. Maybe I bring all these bad habits forward.

... to all a good night.