HST help

[s219]

It's not accurate to say that HST is superior to Gear. It all depends on the application, the tasks you need to perform. There are times where Gear outshines HST. Having owned both, and even though I prefer HST for myself (because I mostly do commercial landscaping and lots of loader work)... I will say that, without a doubt, a Gear will put the HP to the ground much more efficiently, with more raw power. So, in ground engagement applications, plowing, discing, cultivating, etc...the Gear is actually better.

I agree 100%, and that's what I was trying to get at in my reply up above. When I bought a tractor for mowing years ago, I opted for gear because HST was unnecessary and I could really tell that the HST sapped a bit of power. The gear was more responsive and clearly put more power to the ground. I still have that Deere for mowing, and still am happy with the transmission choice. Newere Deeres in that size come HST-only.

When it came time for a general purpose tractor that would have most use for loader work and grading/landscaping, there was no question in my mind HST was better. Didn't even consider gear tractors then.

So to me, the OP needs to consider his usage and make the right choice. HST doesn't really have the downsides he was concerned about at the start of the thread. However, that doesn't mean it's the best option either.

 

[s219]

so when comparing a 45hp HST to a 45hp gear on a dyno at the rear wheel as an example, the gear would have more hp at the rear wheel... is this accurate based on what I have read?
the gear has somewhat of a mechanical advantage over the HST..?

The issue is that the HST converts mechanical energy to fluid dynamic energy, and then back to mechanical energy. There are losses in that process, and it's also subject to the limitations of fluids that can shear and slip (which creates heat). The end result is a loss of some of the input power. I don't know the exact numbers, but I'd guess it's in the 10-15% range. HST tractors tend to have 5-10% less HP at the PTO, but I think that's a side effect of the HST using up some power that would otherwise go to the PTO. When the same power is channeled through the HST, there are additional losses as it goes to the wheels.

 

[Kodiak45]

I'm trying to get a feel for capability of a newer HST tractor with loader to my current 45hp Long 2460 as I definitely do not want to downsize in pulling power. The 2460 pulls a 2 bottom plow without straining and will pull my JD 5ft tandem offset disc also, so I definitely want to be able to use my current implements with my proposed tractor. In the next year or two, I'd like to get an older 100 hp to strictly use for plowing, but my utility tractor with loader comes first. I know 4x4 will add some capability, but I don't know if that should be a factor in what can be pulled as something is telling me that if I have to use 4x4 in order to pull an implement on dry ground, then perhaps I should just be using a larger tractor... maybe that thought is way off, I just don't want to strain or put anything under stress that would cause unnecessary wear and tear.
So with all that, it seems that I should be looking at 50hp and up for HST if I want similar capabilities with my Long 2460...?

 

[TSO]

I'm trying to get a feel for capability of a newer HST tractor with loader to my current 45hp Long 2460 as I definitely do not want to downsize in pulling power. The 2460 pulls a 2 bottom plow without straining and will pull my JD 5ft tandem offset disc also, so I definitely want to be able to use my current implements with my proposed tractor. In the next year or two, I'd like to get an older 100 hp to strictly use for plowing, but my utility tractor with loader comes first. I know 4x4 will add some capability, but I don't know if that should be a factor in what can be pulled as something is telling me that if I have to use 4x4 in order to pull an implement on dry ground, then perhaps I should just be using a larger tractor... maybe that thought is way off, I just don't want to strain or put anything under stress that would cause unnecessary wear and tear.
So with all that, it seems that I should be looking at 50hp and up for HST if I want similar capabilities with my Long 2460...?

I disc with a 3pt 6.5' tandem disc. It's a full box frame, probably weighs around 1000 lbs I'm guessing.

My 48 HP HST tractor handles it in medium range. But, I wouldn't want to go any lower in HP for that disc.

 

[Grandad4]

Msg deleted ... duplicate.

 

[Sysop]

What you lose in horsepower, you make up for in torque from the lower "ratios" available in an HST. As I'd stated before, if geared tractors were geared as low as the ratios able to be produced by an HST, they would make more torque for pulling. They're not geared as low as what an HST can do, and therefore don't produce as much torque. Yes, raw power is lost in HST, but it is "geared" much lower and in the end has more "grunt"... There are many reasons most of the heavy ground engaging construction equipment has gone to HST.

 

[Grandad4]

I'm trying to get a feel for capability of a newer HST tractor with loader to my current 45hp Long 2460 as I definitely do not want to downsize in pulling power. The 2460 pulls a 2 bottom plow without straining and will pull my JD 5ft tandem offset disc also, so I definitely want to be able to use my current implements with my proposed tractor. In the next year or two, I'd like to get an older 100 hp to strictly use for plowing, but my utility tractor with loader comes first. I know 4x4 will add some capability, but I don't know if that should be a factor in what can be pulled as something is telling me that if I have to use 4x4 in order to pull an implement on dry ground, then perhaps I should just be using a larger tractor... maybe that thought is way off, I just don't want to strain or put anything under stress that would cause unnecessary wear and tear.
So with all that, it seems that I should be looking at 50hp and up for HST if I want similar capabilities with my Long 2460...?

Couple of points to add... maybe adds a bit to what others have said. First, if you're going from a tradtional 2wd farm utility to a 4x4 CUT style tractor, there's a big difference in weight distribution. The 4x4 has way more weight at the front end, so in 2wd it has less pulling power than a 2wd farm tractor of the same weight and horsepower. Don't consider using the 4wd a big deal because these newer tractors are designed to work that way.
Next, if your plan is to change to an HST loader tractor and use it for your field work for a couple of years until you can get that 100 hp rig, just my opinion but you should be OK as long as you're not working many, many acres with it. There are TBN members doing a goodly amount of that work with their HST tractors with no trouble.
Also, a 45+ horsepower HST should handle your tillage work without straining. I think you'd find a 4x4 would pull more than a 2wd of the same power and weight in either dry or wet condtions, probably more than offsetting the HST power losses. 50 hp would put you ahead some from your current setup.
It would help you get a better sense of things if there is a dealer near you who would let you demo a tractor at your place for a day. Guess that's becoming a rarity but maybe if you don't look like a shifty character someone local might work with you. Best of luck in your plans and shopping.

 

[GManBart]

so when comparing a 45hp HST to a 45hp gear on a dyno at the rear wheel as an example, the gear would have more hp at the rear wheel... is this accurate based on what I have read?
the gear has somewhat of a mechanical advantage over the HST..?

Correct. The other thing you'd see is that the PTO horsepower would be a bit lower for the HST machine as well. It's normally along the lines of a couple of horsepower difference for something like a 40hp tractor.

 

[texasjohn]

It's easy to over analyze this topic.
All transmissions eat power between the engine and wheels. HST technically eats more than a gear tractor, but it's not but a few hp.
Most people will not be able to find the difference since it is seen only at full RPM's and with max hp required by attached equipment.
Can you actually find the difference in operation between say 50 hp and maybe 46 hp...I can't.
And, as commented, HST puts all its RPM torque to the wheels, at ALL speeds...and it's an infinitely variable transmission.
Many, myself included, have testified that they successfully use HST for many acres of ground engagement, when needed.
HST has many features, discussed elsewhere in this thread, which make it unique among transmissions.

In my opinion, if one is actually full time farming over 200 acres, then likely you need more than 60ish hp, which puts you out of the HST category. Below that, be aware of all the pros and cons for each transmission type, understand your budget, needs, value you place on ability to move slow at high power, safety, and make your decision.

My decision and that of many others who have previously posted is that HST is well worth a few extra dollars because of the features we have learned to greatly appreciate. That said, other transmissions can be made to work with varying degrees of flexibility, efficiency, safety and operator fatigue.

 

[TSO]

It's easy to over analyze this topic.
All transmissions eat power between the engine and wheels. HST technically eats more than a gear tractor, but it's not but a few hp.
Most people will not be able to find the difference since it is seen only at full RPM's and with max hp required by attached equipment.
Can you actually find the difference in operation between say 50 hp and maybe 46 hp...I can't.
And, as commented, HST puts all its RPM torque to the wheels, at ALL speeds...and it's an infinitely variable transmission.
Many, myself included, have testified that they successfully use HST for many acres of ground engagement, when needed.
HST has many features, discussed elsewhere in this thread, which make it unique among transmissions.

In my opinion, if one is actually full time farming over 200 acres, then likely you need more than 60ish hp, which puts you out of the HST category. Below that, be aware of all the pros and cons for each transmission type, understand your budget, needs, value you place on ability to move slow at high power, safety, and make your decision.

My decision and that of many others who have previously posted is that HST is well worth a few extra dollars because of the features we have learned to greatly appreciate. That said, other transmissions can be made to work with varying degrees of flexibility, efficiency, safety and operator fatigue.

My 41 HP LS shuttle shift could easily out push and out pull my 47 HP LS HST tractor. same exact tractor, same exact engine just tuned up a bit for more power in the hydro.

It was easily noticeable. Power to the ground.

Now, PTO HP is a different story. You probably won't notice a few extra or less HP at the PTO.

Again, I prefer HST ... For the majority of my tractor use. But when I was out discing my field the other day, I would have preferred a Gear-shuttle.