HVAC Decision Time

[bmac]

<font color="blue"> </font> <font color="blue"> In my opinion they are over priced by dealers because trane has in the past a good marketing / advertising </font>

I spoke with the aforementiond relative about which unit he would install in his own hoe, to which he replied that it would be an American Standard brand. His second choice is Trane. My HVAC contractor is not an American Standard dealer. Therefore, I had to select an alternative. Supposed to be nearly identical between AC and Trane as AC is Tranes parent company. After seeing the HVAC price quotes, it is clear that they think a lot of teir Trane productes.

Again, that you for taking the time to reply. I'll update this once a decision has been made. Supposed to meet with the contractor and electrician tomorrow. I hope to discuss this with the builder then.

 

[Cityboyfarmer]

Bmac,

You might find it interesting that Home Depot owns Trane now. I’m pretty sure they probably own American standard too.

OK, here’s my two cents from my 18 years in the HVAC maintenance and electrical fields and from living and working in the Suwanee Ga. area for several years and in Central Ga. for the last 9 years. Keep in mind this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Your duct system design is 100% more important than the brand equipment and SEER rating you choose or whether you have a gas furnace or all electric. If your airflow is inadequate, no equipment will operate as efficiently as it should. Your duct system is not the area in which to save money. Better to buy builder grade mechanical’s and install them in an expertly designed duct system than to spend money on the super high SEER equipment installed in the typical Atlanta area spider-type flex duct systems I’ve seen installed. Remember that it is a system designed from multiple components. Inadequacy in any one component results in a less than efficient system.

An efficient duct system is one that is designed using ACCA Manual “D” and takes into consideration the resistance to airflow of the type of duct and fittings installed, and especially the return air system. The Manual “D” standards are the minimum requirements, much like the NEC is for electrical systems. The ducts must be sized to maintain the static pressure throughout the system so that you have the CFM of airflow desired/required for each room in your home. I suggest multiple filtered returns. In Florida, it is now code that each room has a filtered return. My sister’s home in Tampa has a 12”x12” filter grille in each bedroom and filter grille’s appropriately sized for living, dining, halls etc. It is more expensive to install during construction, but a whole lot cheaper than correcting airflow mistakes afterward.

Get a Manual “J” heat load calculation done by an HVAC professional who knows what he is doing. Every component of your home must be considered from the direction it faces, building materials, amount and type of glass in your windows, insulation, roof color and so on.

Contact Georgia Power or your local EMC and see what customer rebates they offer. It may well cause you to reconsider the decision to go all-electric or to use gas or a combination. My EMC sent an engineer out to assist with my system design. Yours may offer this help as well.

These are my opinions based upon my experience and I hope you find them helpful.

 

[BB_TX]

<font color="blue"> but I'm not sure about the cooling level of a heat pump in our hot GA summers. </font>
If it will cool adequately in our TX summers, it will do fine in yours. We have had a heat pump for over 20 yrs. We average about 15 days over 100 each year, with 103+ not unusual. And even when it is ONLY in the upper 90's, the heat index is usually 105+. Have never regretted putting in the heat pump.
Our winters are typically not overly cold, sometimes in the low 20's and high teens. Heat pump handles anything down to high 20's OK. After that it usually needs the auxiliary heating coil.

 

[techman]

Just a follow-up to your comments. A heat pump is basically a standard air conditioner, with the addition of a reversing valve and a few other minor components. When it reverses, the cycle is the same except you are cooling the outside, and bringing the heat inside. There are not that many extra pieces needed to do the job. While another comment was true that the compressor runs twice as long, life is good on a quality unit. I have 2 at my house that are 18 years old and still going strong. Most failures are not compressors, but leaks, capacitors, fans, etc.

As for capacity, the BTU rating of a heat pump is the same as an AC. It will cool an equal amount. In heating mode, the heat pump can deliver the same BTU's as heat at some defined outside temperature. As it gets colder out, many people think that heat pumps become inefficient. This is not true at all. Modern units will deilver 2 to 3 watts of heat for every watt of electrical input even in the mid teens. The problem is that the amount of heat that can be extracted from the air goes down as the outside temp goes down, so a 36,000 BUT unit may deliver 36,000 BTU's of heat when it is 35 degrees out, but at 15 degrees it may only be able to deliver 20,000 BTU's. Note however that as the outside temp gets colder, the load on the compressor reduces, so the electrical input goes down, and the efficiency of the heat delivered is still high. Problem becomes that it can not deliver enough BTU's to maintain the indoor temperature. This is where the backup heat is needed. With an electric strip backup, the electric adds to the heat pumps heat. In a dual fuel, when the heat pump can't maintain the indoor temp, the heat pump is shut down and the gas furnace kicks in. The best overall is to have a small electric strip (4-5KW) and a furnace, in what is called a 3 stage heat. Up to a point, it is just heat pump. As capacity goes down, it uses heat pump plus electric strip, and when that limit is reached, the furnace only takes over. This can have the best overall operating costs, since in a 2 stage, you lose the heat pump's benefit as soon as the furnace kicks in (the heat pump can not run with the furnace since the hot air from the furnace can not be pushed through the heat pump coils-excessive pressures occur). The other system configuration that works very well is having a small furnace to generate hot water. A water coil is put in the air outlet of the heat pump in place of the electric strip. When backup is needed, a circulator runs water from the furnace through the coil in the heat pump to add heat. This allows the heat pump to continue running. I have seen these done using gas hot water heaters as the backup supply. Very effective and less space is needed.

As for the cost of propane, you mentioned the increase in NG. Here in PA, the propane is following the increases in NG, so no matter what gas you use, it is getting expensive.

paul

 

[Sigarms]

American Standard owns Trane.

I think your wrong on Home Depot owning Trane.

Per your post, which would of been news to myself, I called 4 different people who work directly for both Trane and American Standard. These people know nothing about it (Home Depot woning Trane).

Now, the CFO of Trane did say "no comment", but I think that was a CYA move.

Home Depot has a "Trane program" where the homeowner can buy Trane, through a Trane dealer (which you may be thinking of).

Again, I could be wrong, but I do distribute American Standard, and deal with numerous Trane/American Standard dealers, and no one has mentioned this news.

 

[thcri]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Bmac,

You might find it interesting that Home Depot owns Trane now. I’m pretty sure they probably own American standard too.
)</font>


Being a Trane dealer for many years and being within 60 miles of the home office I think I would have heard the news. Home Depot does sell the Trane Unit but they don't own Trane or American Standard at this point. Now I am not saying something is in the works. You go to the Trane web site and at the bottom it says a division of American Standard, you go to the American Standard site and it says nothing about being a division of anybody.

The only thing I got to say is the prices the original poster posted, is way high compared to our area. It's almost like I could drive down there and still be cheaper.

murph

 

[dmccarty]

bmac,

I will throw this out and see what are HVAC experts say. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I took a class on building energy efficient homes with much of the focus on passive and active solar systems. There was a section on HVAC where it was mentioned that the cost to go from say 12 to 14 SEER would only cost say $400 in increased equipment cost but the installer would likely charge way more. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif There really should not be a big increase in costs between a SEER 12, 14, or 16 system since installation should be the same. The instructor for this section was the HVAC code inspector for the town I lived in and he used to be a contractor for many years.

We put in a 12 or 14 SEER unit in hour new house and it has kept us cool this summer when we had quite a few days over 100 with high humidity. We put in a Goodwin(sp) system.

Later,
Dan

 

[Cityboyfarmer]

Sigarms and thcri,

You are correct. I incorrectly assumed that Home Depot had acquired Trane. What Home Depot has actually acquired is Apex Supply Company, who, as far as I am aware was the largest, if not the sole Trane distributor here in Georgia. According to The Home Depot Supply Web Sight Home Depot is the worlds largest independent Trane distributor.

Many contractors around here believe Home Depot actually owns Trane and gripe profusely about it.

I do wonder how many shares of American Standard Arthur Blank owns though. He bought the Falcon's. Might as well buy Trane. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[thcri]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( bmac,

I will throw this out and see what are HVAC experts say. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
)</font>


Dan,

Going from a 10 SEER to a 14 SEER Puron system we charge about $700.00 more including the installation. That is for a 2 to 2.5 ton system. Carrier is the brand. When you get into the 3 and up the difference does get greater. Installation on a Puron system we do charge a bit more. That is in the $700 quote.

Lifetime of most residential equipment is about 20 years for those of you that are trying to figure out cost versus savings. And yes sometimes the higher SEER's you won't get your money back on. In the colder climates when you don't use them much it takes a lot longer to recover. Now our utility companies have come up with some big rebates that do make it worthwhile.

murph

 

[bmac]

Murph,

The quote I referred to was for a 4 ton on the main floor and 3.5 ton for upstairs. Does the $4500 increase for the 14 SEER still seem unreasonably high?