Hydraulic Motor Question

[ocaj11]

Hello All,

I would like to get some advice regarding hydraulic motors. I would like to get a motor to mount to my front end loader and use the motor to turn drill stem for well drilling. I have a John Deere 5325 with the following hydraulic specs:

Pump Rated Output Standard 19.9 GPM
Rated Flow @ One SCV 13.9 GPM
Maximum Operating Pressure 2,906 GPM
Maximum Hydraulic Power 19.5 HP

I'm currently jetting a water well using a 4200 psi pressure washer. As I jet down, I'm inserting 4" pvc for well casing as I go down. Currently, I'm at 40 feet and I ran into some gravel that my pressure washer won't cut.

I would like to know which hydraulic motor I need to give me the greatest tourque with a fairly low RPM. If I use 1" or 1 1/4" black pipe for drill stem and get maybe a 2" drill bit and a 5" reamer bit, maybe I could push through the gravel and continue down with the drilling method or pressure washing method assuming I'm still in clay or hit sand.

I looked at surplus center for hydraulic motors, but I really couldn't figure out which type would be best for my application.

 

[J_J]

Your pump appears to put out more than the SCV can handle. But anyway, here is a hyd wheel motor with good torque, and requires about 20 GPM . Read all the specs, and it seems just what you want.

Surplus Center - 28.3 cu in HYD WHEEL MOTOR W/5 BOLT HUB

 

[J_J]

Hello All,

I would like to get some advice regarding hydraulic motors. I would like to get a motor to mount to my front end loader and use the motor to turn drill stem for well drilling. I have a John Deere 5325 with the following hydraulic specs:

Pump Rated Output Standard 19.9 GPM
Rated Flow @ One SCV 13.9 GPM
Maximum Operating Pressure 2,906 GPM
Maximum Hydraulic Power 19.5 HP

I'm currently jetting a water well using a 4200 psi pressure washer. As I jet down, I'm inserting 4" pvc for well casing as I go down. Currently, I'm at 40 feet and I ran into some gravel that my pressure washer won't cut.

I would like to know which hydraulic motor I need to give me the greatest tourque with a fairly low RPM. If I use 1" or 1 1/4" black pipe for drill stem and get maybe a 2" drill bit and a 5" reamer bit, maybe I could push through the gravel and continue down with the drilling method or pressure washing method assuming I'm still in clay or hit sand.

I looked at surplus center for hydraulic motors, but I really couldn't figure out which type would be best for my application.

How are you getting the gravel up out of the well? Sand doesn't need that much velocity to flow out , but in a 4 in casing. Gravel will need some high velocity flow, and maybe not even move the gravel at all.

 

[ocaj11]

I have two thoughts on the gravel issue:

1. If I had a rotating bit at the bottom of the hole, maybe the gravel could be broken up and pushed into the surrounding soil far enough to allow the casing to slip through. I've never done this before, so that may or may not be possible.

2. I could rent a dewatering pump from the rental yard and plumb that up to a 1" pvc pipe that I put in the bottom of the well. Put the suction end in my lake, turn on the high volume of water, and try to lift the gravel out with the water flow.

It's a new adventure for me, so ideas are welcome....

 

[J_J]

Would not the gravel layer give you good enough water flow, or do you know exactly how deep you want to go. When you take everything out of the well casing, how deep is the water if any?

Before my 100 ft 2 in well rusted trough, the water rose in the pipe so that a 1 in, 20 ft pipe with a ft valve was sufficient to maintain good water flow. I later removed that pump and pipe, and installed a 1 1/2 HP pump on the 2 in pipe, and drew plenty of water. When it started pumping water and sand, I knew the casing was rusted through. There is a chance that I can put a pipe within a pipe and recover the well.

 

[ocaj11]

JJ,

My guess is that I have hit water by hitting gravel. I've dug two ponds on this place and never once hit a rock, so I was suprised to hit gravel at 40 feet. Unfortunately, by jetting the well with water, I'm left to guess whether or not the water in my bore is being drawn up by the surrounding soil or if it's flowed back into water sand? I haven't put any water in the hole for a week now and I can see water down about 30 feet. I would like to go deeper just to ensure that I have sufficient water for my irrigation needs.

I purchased some used 2 7/8 drill stem today and I'm going to put 45 feet of steel in the bore and see if I can punch through the gravel using my trackhoe for a hammer.

I should have an update after this weekend if things go right.

On the Hydraulic Motor question: If the motor is rated for 2500 psi and my tractor makes 2900 psi, will that hurt anything? If the motor is rated for 20 GPM and I only make 17 GPM, do I lose much?

 

[J_J]

You could dial the PRV relief down, or add a DPRV across the hyd motor. Less rpm means less speed. You will still have the torque across the speed range.

The pressure will only get that high if you stall the motor. The pressure is based on the resistance the hyd motor has to overcome. .

 

[jinman]

Keith, you REALLY need to know what the average well depth is in your area. If you are in an area with lots of springs, you may have sufficient water at the 50' level, but I'd bet you will find most wells in your area are 200' or deeper. The water you have in your current hole may just be normal ground seepage and nowhere nearly sufficient enough to pump. The gravel you have found may be an old creek bed. Under the gravel, you could find limestone or shale that is very hard. The danger of a stuck drill is very real. My neighbor had a professional driller who got a stuck pipe at about 300' and had to give up and start a new well. I understand your need for water and that you probably don't want to spend a lot of money on a driller, but without having some idea of where you are going, this may just be the first of many obstacles.

I grew up in Denton and we had rocked up shallow 30' wells fed by springs. We also had two ponds fed by springs that never dried in the worst drought conditions. I know there are lots of springs around northeast TX. You could be close to success, but who knows? Maybe you have more info than you have posted. Hope so. . . .

Edit: Let me add a couple of links that may be helpful.

Northeast TX underground water

Northeast TX Groundwater Report

 

[J_J]

As far as the motor question, if you are running 3 GPM less, then the motor rpm will be about 70 rpm less.

As the motor cu in increases, the rpm of the hyd motor decreases with the same GPM's.

 

[J_J]

Have you tried to draw any water from the well. If you are in a gravel layer, you might have enough water, maybe not drinking water, but test it anyway.

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex639

 

[ocaj11]

Jim,

My neighbors well is 74 feet deep, but he hit water around 50 feet if I recall correctly. I'm pretty sure I'm close to water at 40 feet, but I'm getting beat by this gravel.

Today, I rigged a contraption using 3 inch pvc with a flapper at the bottom. I hooked my shop vac up to pull a vacuum and was able to pull some gravel and sand into my pipe. The semi-check flapper I rigged held the sand and gravel in the pipe. We pulled up and dumped, but my design is too cumbersome to get much done since I plumbed the 3 inch pvc down to 1 1/4 inch pvc. All that pipe and water was heavy......

I have not tried to put a pump at the bottom of the hole yet because I still want to get another 10 - 15 feet before testing.

I'm still contemplating the hydraulic motor idea and might go for it if this bailer contraption fails.

 

[jinman]

That's good and bad news Keith. You know water is there, but you're about 20 feet from success. Of course water tables vary widely in depth, so you might get lucky and find sufficient water soon. Often shallow wells are terrible for drinking and full of iron, but probably fine for watering grass/crops without any treatment. Shallow wells are also subject to surface pollutants. Deeper water is older water that has been there long before people were ever on this continent.

The most danger you have with the hydraulic motor/auger method is getting a stuck drill pipe or twisting the stem. I think you will have to use some down hole lubrication. My driller used Dawn dish soap when he was drilling my well. He had a huge cattle trough filled with water and Dawn. We pumped water out of my pond into his water truck and then filled the trough and mixed the dawn soap. His drill rig pulled water out of the trough and sent it down the pipe with air pressure to cool the drill and keep it lubed.

I remember that my uncle had a well that was walled up down to about 30 feet. The diameter of the well was about 3-1/2'. He wanted to get the well deeper, but ran into sandrock. He drilled into the sandrock and then used dynamite to bust up the rock. He got his well deeper and increased his water pool significantly.