Hydraulic PHD advice

[rd_macgregor]

My wife and daughter want to put in a bunch more horse fencing and build an outdoor arena, so I'm using this as an excuse to get the hydraulic PHD that I've wanted.
Because I only have 9.8GPM of flow in my Kioti DK45, most skid-steer hydraulic augers wouldn't work well (if at all). I've priced the Belltec NC150 auger drive, which calls for 6-15 GPM, but am hung up on what size auger bits to order. My posts aren't likely to be set in concrete, just backfilled and tamped in, so should the holes be just slightly larger diameter than the posts or substantially larger? I'd like to get by with just two bits, but can't decide if I should go with 6 and 12 or 9 and 14 (we might be using some old utility poles for corner posts).
First, is there anyone here with experience with the Belltec hydraulic auger?
Second, I'd be happy to hear advice on pros and cons of bit size.
Oh, by the way, our soil is mostly sandy loam with sandstone cobbles (sometimes big chunks or even quite large sandstone slabs -- but pretty soft sandstone, for the most part); very little clay.
Thanks,
BOB

 

[CJONE]

My wife and daughter want to put in a bunch more horse fencing and build an outdoor arena, so I'm using this as an excuse to get the hydraulic PHD that I've wanted.
Because I only have 9.8GPM of flow in my Kioti DK45, most skid-steer hydraulic augers wouldn't work well (if at all). I've priced the Belltec NC150 auger drive, which calls for 6-15 GPM, but am hung up on what size auger bits to order. My posts aren't likely to be set in concrete, just backfilled and tamped in, so should the holes be just slightly larger diameter than the posts or substantially larger? I'd like to get by with just two bits, but can't decide if I should go with 6 and 12 or 9 and 14 (we might be using some old utility poles for corner posts).
First, is there anyone here with experience with the Belltec hydraulic auger?
Second, I'd be happy to hear advice on pros and cons of bit size.
Oh, by the way, our soil is mostly sandy loam with sandstone cobbles (sometimes big chunks or even quite large sandstone slabs -- but pretty soft sandstone, for the most part); very little clay.
Thanks,
BOB

Just curious who told you that a skid steer auger won't work? If a skid steer has even 20GPM in the aux circuit [that is alot by the way] your tractor would spin it a half speed but it would still have plenty of torque at the 2600PSI relief setting. Most newer skid steers are around 2800-3200PSI so we are close with our tractors. I am renting 1 with a 30" bit in a couple of weeks, we'll see how that goes. CJ

 

[rd_macgregor]

My concern with the rotation rate is that it might not clear the dirt quite as well...it has to sort of fling the dirt off to the sides or else you just end up with a pile on the bit that falls back into the hole when you pull the bit up/out.
I think the Belltec NC-150, at my 9.88 GPM, would be turning at about 60 rpm with roughly 1200 ft-lbs of torque. The next model (NC-200, rated at 10-20 GPM) would turn at only about 50 rpm (but have closer to 1500 ft-lbs of torque).
The comparable Danuser augers (either EP-6 or Model 615) from Everything Attachments are very simlilar to the Belltecs in RPM and torque, but I can get the Belltec from a Canadian distributor with a bit less shipping hassle.
I've decided that I can afford the auger drive, with hex shaft, flat-face couplers and SS quick-attach plate AND two auger bits...I'm now dithering about which two bits to order, given my intended uses.
I'm not keen on doing a lot more backfilling and tamping than necessary, but I don't want to find I'm drilling holes 1/2" smaller diameter than my posts, either!
BOB

 

[jenkinsph]

BOB,
I have the PA 30 hydraulic auger to use with my 110tlb and am using it with minimal flow rates. While it does turn slow it still seems to do a good job of clearing the dirt from the hole. I chose the more heavy duty model over the PA 15 because of prefering the extra torque over the higher turning speed. I figured that it would be easier to clean out a hole than to have to dig the hole by hand because of larger rocks.

After using the larger unit for two years I have had several holes that I don't think the smaller unit could have dug out. If you don't have any large rocks that would stop the auger drive then a faster speed with less torque would sling the dirt better as you mention. As long as the bit is turning with down pressure both will make the holes in a couple of seconds is my experience.

 

[wedge40]

You might want to contact Brandi (username bindian). Very nice lady here on TBN. She has a Danuser unit that she uses with her tractor.
Here is a link to a recent thread about building a mount for the PHD.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/229883-hydraulic-auger-mount.html

Wedge

 

[woodlandfarms]

I built my own. Cost 1K all in. Used a wheel motor and hub, welded an adapter, bolted some bolts and it is the best darn tool for digging holes. This thing is a monster.

My tractor line is Hydraulic, there is a range of Hydraulic post hole diggers, from small ones for the machines with 4GPH to my size (18GPH).

Here is a picture of my results. Happy to help if you need more advice.

One other thing, I know very little about tractoring, and my first few post holes were not successful as they would fill back in. But then I learned something which was stop the drill when you get to what you want as a bottom, and lift it up (Auger not spinning) once it is out of the ground turn it on and fling the dirt off. Much cleaner holes.

As for bit size, I got a 12". A 14 would have been better in hindsight. I wish for a whole set of augers up to the 36" but I have a mortgage to pay. I think one 14" bit would be more than enough. Forget the 9"

 

[ME83]

I have a hydraulic auger on my 110 tlb, can't remember the name but it is almost identical spec wise to the PA 30. I use the same method as woodlandfarms, stop the bit at the bottom of the hole and lift up at the end; I then back up a foot so the dirt won't fall back in the hole and cycle the hydraulics back and forth a few times to knock all the dirt off. This gives the cleanest hole.

I have gravel and sand type soil, I find it can be a pain if the ground is very dry since the hole will collapse a little at times. I have a 9" bit, perfect for 4x4 posts but tight with the 6x6 posts I use in corners and gates. I will pick up a 12"+ at some point.

I have used 3 pt hitch ones before and find the hydraulic auger on the loader is much better, if I buy another tractor I will put the auger on the 110 backhoe for the extra flow rate. I like it in the loader for now due to the ease of hooking up and not needing the backhoe attached.

Another note of caution, my wife has a few horses. We have an outdoor arena and I find it is a waste of space. She doesn't ride in it much, mostly due to the dust the sand makes and the hassle of having to water it first. So she rides in the field and I have to drag the arena to keep the grass and weeds out of it. Would serve a much better purpose of being seeded over so the horses have more to eat (and I don't have to do anything to it).

 

[rd_macgregor]

ME83, if it was up to me, we wouldn't have horses at all! My wife would be content to ride trails and fields, but my daughter is training young horses and doesn't want them to be able to run off if she gets dumped. Also (purportedly), they need to be accustomed to arena-riding before going into competition.
Woodlandfarms, congratulations on fabricating your set-up. Sadly, I not only am seriously inept, mechanically, but I also don't really have tools or a good working setup (eg shop) to do that sort of thing. What sort of things have you been putting into your 14" holes? I'll be mostly installing fence posts in the 4" to 6" size, and didn't want to end up backfilling and tamping a lot extra. Still, maybe I'd be better (if I'm getting two bits) to go with the 9" and a 14-15" size rather than the 12"?? Is 14" big enough for tree/shrub planting?
BOB

 

[M8land]

How does it handle in tree roots and brush roots? And Stoney ground?

 

[CJONE]

My concern with the rotation rate is that it might not clear the dirt quite as well...it has to sort of fling the dirt off to the sides or else you just end up with a pile on the bit that falls back into the hole when you pull the bit up/out.
I think the Belltec NC-150, at my 9.88 GPM, would be turning at about 60 rpm with roughly 1200 ft-lbs of torque. The next model (NC-200, rated at 10-20 GPM) would turn at only about 50 rpm (but have closer to 1500 ft-lbs of torque).
The comparable Danuser augers (either EP-6 or Model 615) from Everything Attachments are very simlilar to the Belltecs in RPM and torque, but I can get the Belltec from a Canadian distributor with a bit less shipping hassle.
I've decided that I can afford the auger drive, with hex shaft, flat-face couplers and SS quick-attach plate AND two auger bits...I'm now dithering about which two bits to order, given my intended uses.
I'm not keen on doing a lot more backfilling and tamping than necessary, but I don't want to find I'm drilling holes 1/2" smaller diameter than my posts, either!
BOB

Gotcha, I was told by the rental place that the auger on their skid steers will not clean themselfs out with anything over 12" dia. auger. I looked up the spec on their units and it is 16GPM flow. Anyway they said to load the auger then pull it away and dump it, doesn't seem to be a big problem but I will know in a few weeks!! CJ

 

[woodlandfarms]

RD - This was a DIRT SIMPLE Build. You could do this, trust me. Even if you can't weld you probably have a neighbor who can. I took my motor down to the machine shop, showed them my plan. The guy walked over, grabbed 4 feet of C Channel, made 3 cuts, Grabbed a torch and cut the hole for the motor, grabbed a drill and drilled out the 7 holes I needed and handed it all back to me.

If you are bucket attaching this, it is even easier.

I guess a 9" would be great for posts. i bought the 12 as it was a good all around. The more I think about it a 9 and a 14 or a 9 and a 16 would be ideal.

I have planted over 200 trees with the PHD. I can cram a 5 gallon into a 12" hole, but the wife wishes it were bigger (the auger) for root growth as we are in clay for the most part. The big potted trees (24" or larger pots) are planted with a back hoe. I can go on sever slopes with my backhoe so it works out well.

 

[nwngunner]

I would go no less then a 12inch drill for your corner posts. I run 4inch posts for the main fence, then 8s for the corners.

 

[boggen]

prefer slow speed myself. 90% or more of hole gets cleaned out with hardly any sort of spinning of the PTO, ((low RPMS)) there is a little bit that falls back in. that a regular handled post hole digger can clean out quickly and easily granted manual labor. but come on. you just got hardest part done. all you have left to remove from hole is "fluff" errr dirt that is broken up into tiny pieces. that allows quick easily drop and pickup of regular manual post hole digger to clean out hole.

i have more problems with getting through "hard hard dirt" than having to worry about trying to get every little bit of dirt out of the hole. if it takes 1 to 5 manual post hole digger fulls of dirt so be it.

i would say bigger hole vs smaller hole for posts. i would go with bigger hole. granted more slowly pushing dirt in and then compacting dirt. but here on the farm. i could dig a hole put post down in hole. and every 3 to 4 inches of dirt compact it, with a hand tamper. and end up barely with enough dirt to come even with ground.

your hand tamper (heavy end) may predict size of hole you go with. most tampers i have had, are any were from 1.5" to 2" in size. and with posts and holes not always nice and level and straight. have a little bigger hole lets you slide and push bottom of post around a little bit more to get things "straight" **looking down fence line straight)) and then a little wiggle room to compact dirt hopefully on all sides of the posts. granted some holes will be little off and post will be right up against side of hole. and some times you went off a little to much and need to get the spade shovel out to do some extra manual work. but *shrugs*

 

[jenkinsph]

boggen,
Pretty much how I do it too, I do stop the auger mounted on my hoe and lift the bit out to the side to clear it. Not much dirt left to clean out of hole.

I also find that tamping and filling the larger hole is alot easier than digging and moving a smaller hole for alignment of the posts. I use a 6" bit for smaller steel posts and the 12 and 14" for the larger gate and corner posts.

I figure if you can dig the hole to depth easily then that is most of the work, cleaning and tamping in the new post is easy enough.

 

[rd_macgregor]

Thanks, all.
I think I'll go with 9" and 14" (if the 14 isn't TOO much more $$ than the 12).
Good comments on hole alignment and cleanout/tamping, too.
BOB

 

[woodlandfarms]

So how much is the 9" I only ask because you may want to get the 14 and then go back for the 9 if you really need it.

 

[rd_macgregor]

So how much is the 9" I only ask because you may want to get the 14 and then go back for the 9 if you really need it.

In the quote I have, the 9" was $345 and the 12" was $395; I intended buying both, so, unless the 14" is a LOT more expensive than the 12", I'll just get it (along with the 9") instead of the 9"+12".

BOB

 

[boggen]

boggen,
Pretty much how I do it too, I do stop the auger mounted on my hoe and lift the bit out to the side to clear it. Not much dirt left to clean out of hole.

I also find that tamping and filling the larger hole is alot easier than digging and moving a smaller hole for alignment of the posts. I use a 6" bit for smaller steel posts and the 12 and 14" for the larger gate and corner posts.

I figure if you can dig the hole to depth easily then that is most of the work, cleaning and tamping in the new post is easy enough.

dig the hole to depth. caught me, prefer to use longer posts if wooden fence posts. and just dig a little deeper. vs having post barely down into the ground. a few seconds to couple minutes to go down another few inches. so be it.

then once all posts are in, and fence is put on the posts. go back and cut the top of the posts off, if you want a nice top to the fence line. on farm fence on fields. i could care less, but if ya wanting something fancy. *shrugs*

=============
if your backhoe and tractor have enough weight. i just stab the metal T posts in the ground with hand. and then set bucket down on top of T post. and adjust the bucket to get T post nice and level. and just push T post right down into the ground. keeping T post straight as you do so. ((that is the hard part))

granted i have bent a few T posts doing it this way. mainly due to i was trying to get T post nice and level. and tried to bend the T post as i was putting weight on top of the T post. i would say 9 out of 10 T posts went in nice and clean. the 1, it may be a little bent. (curved) or it leaned out and away from fence line.

had chain already on bucket, so i could easily wrap T post i bent a couple times, and pull it out and redo. that is, if i did not bend it to badly.

if i had skills to weld. i would of made a little metal "funnel" and welded it to the bucket or bolted it to the bucket of backhoe. to have less bending problems. and easier way to set bucket down nice and quickly over top of metal T post.

 

[jenkinsph]

boggen,
I always dig the hole as deep as needed, haven't set a shallow post in years because it is pointless. With the backhoe auger I usually set the gate posts about 48" deep. Line posts are set at 24" in my area since the soil is rather sandy but I used to set line posts in the south with clay soil about 18".