Hydraulic valve for grapple... what one?

[2310 guy]

Hi, I'm looking for a valve for the grapple i'm building. My problem is what one to get and how to plumb it. I was looking at mono block directional control blocks.

Do I want one that is spring loaded and return to netraul or do I want one that will remain in whatever position it is placed

Also there is a cheap one for $109 i'm looking at. Its single spool, double acting. It doesn't look like it has a pressure relief valve built into it, if it does I will but it for sure


Also when installing the valve I'm still a little confused. I got a good diagram of how to run the valve in series of the FEL valve. I was wonder if I could tee off the supply line to the FEL valve and the same for the return line.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...synthetic-transaxle-573074-w-2-valves-backhoe
My FEL valve has 3 line 1) for supply 2) for return 3) I assuming it goes to the BH.

I kinda lost right now on what valve to buy and how to plumb it. Any help would be great. My Tractor is a Massey Ferguson gc2310

Thanks KC

 

[kennyd]

You are looking for an open center, spring return to nuetral, PB cabable, work ports blocked in nuetral, double acting spool valve.

The best one for the CUT's due to its size is the Eaton/Cessna compact valves.
HERE is the Single spooler...
HERE is the Two spooler...

 

[dfkrug]

Also when installing the valve I'm still a little confused. I got a good diagram of how to run the valve in series of the FEL valve. I was wonder if I could tee off the supply line to the FEL valve and the same for the return line.

In general, the only Tee-ing you can do is for the low press return to
tank on a valve.

Since your loader has 3 hoses, one is IN, one is low press rtn to tank, and
the last is prob Power Beyond to the 3PH. Your new valve uses this last
port OUT as its IN connection, and the new valve's power beyond OUT
goes where the loader valve's Power Beyond used to go. You will need
to find a convenent place for the low press OUT of the new valve to go.
It can Tee into the low press OUT of the FEL valve or you can find some
other place on the tractor, incl possibly the oil fill port.

You can get a Prince RD2500 mono-block valve with PWR BYD sleeve for
under $100, even at Northern Tool.

 

[2310 guy]

The valve I'm looking at is from princess auto. It cost's $149.99

Features:
• Standard 3-position, 4-way/spring return to neutral unless otherwise stated
• Open centre
• Max. return line pressure: 1,100 PSI
• Relief valve pre-set @ 2,100 PSI, adjustable from 1,500 PSI to 3,750 PSI
• Control handles can be mounted in vertical or horizontal position
• Max. continuous pressure: 3,600 PSI

It says the working port are ORB #6 and the service ports are ORB #8. The piston I have is also ORB # 6. I'm pretty sure everything on the front end loader is 1/4"... or #4?

Should go with the #6 for the grapple or #4. I would like to go #4 if thats what my tractor has.

 

[3RRL]

By "the piston" you have do you mean that is the cylinder for the grapple? If so, it has those ORB #6 threads in it? Then if it was me, I would just use that size instead of the #4. Some guys will disagree with me because they want to slow the grapple down. But since you are using a handle control valve, and not a solenoid operated valve, you will have the luxury of "feathering" the grapple to make it go slow just like your fel. In doing so, you will also have the ability to move it quickly if desired such as when you want to grab something quickly ...don't leave that option out of the equation.

I know you have a diagram of how to plumb your new valve, but if you are still confused, this is what you can do.

- You will need to feed it from a power beyond sleeve from another valve, or directly from the pump output (pressure side).
- In your case, I believe you want to feed it from your fel valve.
- Your fel valve may already have a power beyond sleeve in it, if not, you can buy one for the valve IF the valve is set up to take one. In other words, if your valve has power beyond capability.
- If not, you can still feed it from the outlet on your fel valve to the inlet on your new valve.
- You didn't say if the new valve has power beyond capability. This is where it gets tricky because if you fel does NOT have power beyond, and your new valve DOES, then I would plumb the new valve first in line from the pump and use the power beyond from it to feed your fel valve. Using power beyond is a better way to feed another valve down the line.
- However, you can still do it by having the fel valve feed the new valve.

Plumbing from your fel valve to your new valve, fel valve has NO power beyond feature, new valve has NO power beyond either:
- You would disconnect the line coming out of your fel valve and route it to the "in" on your new valve.
- Then get another hose to go from the exit of your new valve and connect it where the fel exit was connected before.
- Presumably to the sump or tank or to the 3pt ...whatever the fel valve exit was connected to before.

Plumbing from your fel valve to your new valve, fel valve DOES HAVE power beyond in it, new valve also has power beyond:
- Where does the power beyond from your fel valve go now? To the 3pt?
-You can either disconnect the line coming out of the power beyond on your fel valve or whatever it attaches to.
- Take that hose and stick it into the "in" on your new valve.
-Does your new valve have power beyond port on it?
- If so, Get another hose and use that power beyond to feed the 3pt or whatever was being fed by the fel valve before.
- Then you need to run a hose from the "exit" or "out" on your new valve that returns to sump ... the hydraulic reservoir.
- You can do this by "Teeing" into another return to sump line, such as where your fel returns to sump.
- Just add a "T" into that line (going to sump or reservoir) and you are done.

This post is getting pretty long, so I need to know if your new valve and fel valve have power beyond or not. Depending on that, there might be an optional way to plumb your system, like I said above. So I need to know that first.

 

[2310 guy]

Thanks for the detailed responce. I'm pretty sure my FEL has a PB, I think it goes to the 3pt. The valve I want to buy I'm not so sure yet. I'll buy the valve and find out. Its to late for me to get it today because I work afternoons... so maybe on friday.

I want to rap this project up and move to the next so for sure I'll get the valve by the end of this weekend.

Thanks again, KC

 

[2310 guy]

Ok, I just call princess auto to double check the valve. It looks like for anough $19.99 I can buy a PB adapter for the valve i'm looking at (BM 20 spool valve)

Thats $170 for the valve + $155 for the hydraulic piston + $120 in steel. So far I'm up to $445 and I still don't have my lines made up yet.

The reason I wanted to use #4 lines and fittings is because I can get them for free They are all reusable fitting so I will be making the line myself. I need to find a reusible QD and I'm set. Keep my fingers crossed. We have a hydrauic fittings catalogue the size of a phone book. Maybe I can find the QD's i'm looking for in there.... *Fingers crossed*.

 

[3RRL]

Ok, I just call princess auto to double check the valve. It looks like for anough $19.99 I can buy a PB adapter for the valve i'm looking at (BM 20 spool valve)

Thats $170 for the valve + $155 for the hydraulic piston + $120 in steel. So far I'm up to $445 and I still don't have my lines made up yet.

The reason I wanted to use #4 lines and fittings is because I can get them for free They are all reusable fitting so I will be making the line myself. I need to find a reusible QD and I'm set. Keep my fingers crossed. We have a hydrauic fittings catalogue the size of a phone book. Maybe I can find the QD's i'm looking for in there.... *Fingers crossed*.

For free is a pretty good price, so I would go for that too! There is nothing wrong with #4 for the grapple. I have read that using a smaller line orifice will allow you better control because the cylinder fills more slowly. But in the real world, I have not tried the difference, so it may not make any huge difference at all? Especially for grapple use. The real difference is the amount of flow (gals/min) your hydraulic pump produces anyway. Go for it.

If your new valve has power beyond, then plumb it like I described the 2nd way. If you decide not to get the PB sleeve, you can run the exit from your new valve right to the 3pt or wherever it goes. It is just a better system with the power beyond. Here is some reading that will tell you a little more about it.
http://www.baumhydraulics.com/UserFiles/File/terms_hydraulic%E2%80%A6ntrol_valve.pdf

 

[2310 guy]

Ok, I got my new valve today. Its a BM20 (mane in Italy) There are two #8 ports on the sides labled P and T. There are also four #6 ports on top labled P, T, A, B,

What working ports should I use? I am Assuming becaue there are four working ports the vavle can control two hydraulic pistons at the same time. I only need one so I guess I can block two working ports off.

Also, I bought a PB sleeve. I'm wondering what #8 port I plug this into. P or T?

 

[2310 guy]

I think I got it figured out. After taking the plugs out and actualy looking in the ports I saw that #6 and #8 P ports are connected. Same as #6 and #8 T ports.

I figure if I put put my PB sleeve in the #8 P port, it will send fluid out the #6 P port.(to the FEL valve)

If I pug the #6 T port I can Tee #8 to the return on my FEL.

The only problem is the position of the P and T port are going to make mounting and pluming the new valve very awkward. It would be much easier if I put my PB sleeve in the T port and used P as the return.

Is this posible

Edit: FORGET THE ABOVE

I need to find out what port is the return and what one is the pressure. When I look in the #8 T port I can see that there is a machined surface for the o-ring to rest off the PB sleeve. Also both #6 and #8 T port have smaller opening. So T port must be the pressure side. (restriction to flow equals pressure) The P port are larger, less restriction to flow, low pressure. Also there is an oil gallery from the relief spring attacted to the P port. So this must be the low pressure-return side.

Form looking inside the valve as best as posible I've figured Pressure comes in through the #6 T port, it goes throught #8 T port (PB sleeve) to the next valve. I pug the smaller P port and use the larger one ans the return.

Now to put my money were my mouth is....

 

[kennyd]

That valve you have only looks like a 1 spool valve.

P usually= PRESSURE
T usually= TANK
B usually= Beyond (or PowerBeyond)

Since there is 2 P's and 2 T's, I think you could use either and plug the other.

You did not get a schematic with it?

 

[2310 guy]

I wish it came with schematics. It didn't even come is a box. It PB sleeve for sure goes in the #8 T port. Both T ports are much smaller on the inside so this must be the pressure side. Restriction = Pressure. I'll plumb the pressure line to the #6 T port. From looking at the insides it seem fluid will go through #6 T, through the valve body, do its thing, and also be redirected out the # 8 port for the PB. This leaves the #6 and #8 P ports for the return line. I'll plug the #6 P and use the #8 as the return.

I hope this makes sense, to me this sound right but for someone reading it I could see how it could be confusing.

Here is a link to the online PDF file for princess auto. The valve I bought (BM20) is on page 16. http://www.princessauto.com/downloadz/DLcaller.cfm?DLS=EXT&TheFile=12hyd

The valve is made in Italy. That could be why the P, T, A, B are backwards compaired to north american valves.

 

[3RRL]

Looks like you got single spool 3 position, 4 way valve item #1249531, is that right? I think it controls 2 cylinders like for a backhoe. That is why there are four #6 ports on top. At least that's what I think. I would call them up to verify the plumbing. That is my advice.

Anyway, I copied your last picture.



OK, so this is what I think...Looking straight down at your valve, with the joystick on top. There are four #6 ports on the face (wide same surface) and one #8 port on each side of the valve....6 ports total.

- Use the two #6 ports that are right below and in line with the joystick to power your new hydraulic cylinder. I think they are activated by the joystick in opposite directions up or down.
- Or use the two #6 ports that are to each side ... them being controlled by a sideways movement of your joystick.
- Plug off either set that you are not using.
- The #8 port on the right side of the valve should be where your power comes in from the pump.
- The #8 port on the left side should be where you install the power beyond sleeve and then hook it up to your fel valve from there.

That does not leave a return to sump then. Like I said above, I'd call them to verify the plumbing.

 

[2310 guy]

OK, so this is what I think...Looking straight down at your valve, with the joystick on top. There are four #6 ports on the face (wide same surface) and one #8 port on each side of the valve....6 ports total.

That is true. 6 ports total. 4 are #6 ORB 2 are #8 ORB

- Use the two #6 ports that are right below and in line with the joystick to power your new hydraulic cylinder. I think they are activated by the joystick in opposite directions up or down.

The ports labled A & B will be the working ports.

- Or use the two #6 ports that are to each side ... them being controlled by a sideways movement of your joystick.

There are only 2 working ports (A and B) The other top ports (P and T) are the same as #8 P and T. If I stick my finger in the #8 P port I can see it throught the #6 P port. I can do the same on the T ports but I can use my finger because the T ports are much smaller but they are connected.

Also my joystick only moves front to back, no side to side. The only thing I don't get is why they labled the ports backwards. Every valve I seen pics of have the supply side labled P and the return side labled T

My PB sleeve can only go in the #8 T port so I'm sure the #6 T port is supply.
P port must be return because A) they are attached to the oil gallery for the relief and B) Their orifice size is 4 time bigger thatn the T ports. Small orifice = high pressure (supply) Big orifice = low pressure ( return)

 

[3RRL]

Your last photo is great.
What I've seen on my valves is usually the "in" port is on the opposite side of the "exit" or return to sump/tank like you describe. But the power beyond port is normally on the same side as the exit port, ie. opposite side of the power "in" port. that is what's confusing to me and also why there would be one extra #6 port to plug off? Maybe it's for a pressure relief valve? I don't know. But you seem to have a handle on it now, good job.

I'd go for it just as you have described then. I wasn't sure about the other #6 ports or whether you lever could activate sideways or not. You can always switch the hoses if you need to.

 

[DavesTractor]

That valve you have only looks like a 1 spool valve.

P usually= PRESSURE
T usually= TANK
B usually= Beyond (or PowerBeyond)

Since there is 2 P's and 2 T's, I think you could use either and plug the other.

You did not get a schematic with it?

Kennyd is certainly correct. I've never seen them marked otherwise.

 

[3RRL]

Yes, I agree Dave.
That's why I think thought the plumbing would be as I described above except there are only 2 work ports A and B, not 4.
The power in should should come from the P #8 port on the left side where 2310guy has it is labeled "return to tank".
The #6 port that he has labeled "supply" should return to sump or tank. The others are correct. That still leaves the one #6 port to be blocked off. Why do you suppose that is?

 

[DavesTractor]

3RRL,

Many valves can be used with or without PB. With PB, there are three hoses plus the two working ports, for a total of 5 ports being used. Without power-beyond, there is basically pressure in, pressure out and the two working ports, for a total of 4 hoses/ports being used.

I think the poster would be best to get a proper hydraulic schematic or instrutions before proceeding. Sometimes there is a 1/4" plug down in the valve that must be removed or installed to use with PB.

If he decides to hook it up as he is indicating, he should put a pressure relief in line before the valve, and make sure any open hose off the pressure relief is pointing away from him or anyone else...lest they get annointed with oil.

 

[Farmerford]

2310 Guy:

I believe your valve is labeled correctly. Here is why. The relief, if the typical spring and ball or spring and poppet type, is in the circuit right after the pump in and before the power core because the spool, when activated, blocks flow from the power core and thereby creates the pressure in the power core. The passage you see between the relief valve and the port is the passage that connects the relief vavle to the input circuit, not the exhaust circuit. Given the position of your relief valve (and the fact that most valve body relief valves let fluid flow from the tip of the relief valve through internal passages in the relief valve into the exhaust circuit), it seems unlikely that inlet pressure makes it all the way across the valve body from what you call the pump port to what you call the tank port.

Further, most PB sleeves/plugs are at the end of the power core, so that they block exhaust fluid from returning to the tank. Therefore the port with the machined boss for the PB sleeve o-ring is at the exhaust end of the power core, not at the pressure end. That is, the PB sleeve goes into the tank/exhaust/outlet port, not the pump/pressure/inlet port.

If I am correct, and you hook it up the way you plan, you will be putting full pump pressure into the exhaust/low pressure core, and the relief valve will not work because the pressure in pushing the ball/poppet into the seat rather than trying to lift it agains the spring. And, the exhaust core is usually designed for lower pressure than the power core. Full pump pressure in the exhaust core will put that pressure on the sealing o-rings and likely blow them out. That might be a blessing because if the 0rings hold then full pump pressure will build in the exhaust core and, since its walls are usually thinner than the pressure core walls, the valve body may rupture.

I may be all wrong, but there is chance enough that I am at least part right that you should get someone knowledgeable to look at it first hand before you hook it up and try it. Your pump system relief (assuming you have one) will probably protect the pump and lines, but you could damage your valve or yourself.

 

[2310 guy]

The PB sleeve goes in the #8 T port. It can't go anywhere else. Both #6 and #8 P orts must be return because the inside veiw show a much larger dia. than the T ports

I going with the fact its made in Italy is why the ports are labled different. They also had american made valve where all the ports are labled like you guys are saying P=pressure T=tank. I should have bought american made but they don't carry the size valve I need. Only valve that does 5gal/min is the greasy Italian brand.

If you guys were running 1/4" supply line what would you want your return line back to tank be? You would want it to be bigger than the supply side right?

If I run the the supply in through P port that mean the return line will be much smaller oriface back to tank. I was always told restriction to flow = pressure. If I have restriction to flow on the return side that mean I will have high pressure on the return.

I went back to princess auto today looking for info on my mystery valve but they had none.

Does this make any sense. Its been awhile sinse I saw a hydraulic diagram. Its the only info I could find on the BM20. This is just general info on the BM20.

My valve has a relief, its open center, and it has a Power beyond.
Blb hydraulic - Products - Catalog - BM Series

Edit: Oh yeah, thanks again to everyone for there input. The last thing I want it a hydaulic oil shower.