Hydraulics and FEL modification questions

[jim_wilson]

The basic problem I am trying to solve here is that I want to be able to put different attachments onto the FEL on my BX23. I also want to be able to swap those attachments easily - which means I need some way of quick attaching them to the FEL. The problem is that the FEL on the BX23 is not a quick attach setup so some sort of conversion is needed. ATI makes a quick attach kit for the BX23 but from what I figure out from the sparse literature it moves the pivot point of the bucket out a few inches which I think is unsatisfactory because it will reduce the lift and curl capacities - and there isn't that much there to lose.
So this has led me to try and figure out a way to come up with my own quick attach bucket technique that will not move the pivot point out (much). After looking at quick attach buckets on larger Kubota's, some John Deere's and some New Hollands I am pretty confident that I can weld something up that convert my bucket into a quick attach - but that leads to the problem.
The FEL on the BX23 uses a single bucket curl cylinder - and for the life of me I can't come up with what I consider to be a decent design for a quick attach that uses this center cylinder and won't add a bunch of weight - or have attachment problems. Which has led me to think that maybe it would just be easier all around to convert the BX FEL over to dual curl cylinders like the setups that are found on larger tractors or on the JD 2210 or Massey GC series. By doing this I could pretty much copy the quick attach setups that are used on these types of FELS and it would also make it easier for me when I make a forklift attachment and other stuff. It would also leave space in the middle of the bucket for me to put a cylinder for a grapple if I chose to at a later time. Potential warranty issues don't bother me - I am more concerned with putting this together so it will work properly.
I have good confidence in my mechanical abilities but I don't know much about hydraulics. Would it be possible for me to add dual cylinders and just use the original hydraulics on the FEL but just tee off of the lines for the center cylinder to go to the dual cylinders? Is there some formula I should use for sizing the cylinders? There are Massey and JD dealers close enough to me that I can take a trip to study their FEL setups and take some measurements of what size cylinders they use etc. I know a bunch of people in this forum have played with hydraulics so I figured I might find my answers here....

 

[ronjhall]

Jim
Here is a thread that shows a Quick Coupler for my B2910.
Something similar would work for the BX line of loaders. A bracket for hooking up the cylinder would have to be made. Click Here

 

[aardvark]

Jim, adding the quick change units that puch the bucket out will reduce the capacity. I calculated the following as a rough estimate:

length capacity
0.0 460
0.5 455
1.0 451
1.5 447
2.0 442
2.5 438
3.0 434
3.5 430
4.0 426
4.5 422
5.0 418
5.5 414
6.0 411

The above is based on my memory of the horizontal distance between the loader arm pivots and the bucket pivots. It also assumes the Kubota 6" distance between the bucket pivots and load center, when rating the 460 lbs lift capacity.

I think I've spent about 40-50 hours in my cad station trying to figure out the best method to set up the quick change. At first I went under the assumption that I could move the bucket both up and out, or down and out, which would minimize the out distance while sacrificing an inch of lifting or digging distance. This actually works pretty well, but frankly, the 1.5" dimension is about as close as I can keep the bucket to it's original location, in the horizontal direction, unless I really move the bucket up high or down low.

Changing over to two cylinders is an idea I had not thought of, but I was trying to just make it work with what existed. I wasn't planning on welding to make my setup work. The only thing to remember with the two cylinders, is that you will lose the motion ratio of the BX's center cylinder. The center cylinder's pivot center is very close to the bucket's pivot center. If you put a two cylinder setup on, and try to keep the pins in the same position relative to where the single cylinder pivot is now, the new pivot on the cylinder rams will interfere with the loader arms long before the bucket curls all the way back. See the picture I posted in the other thread, or actually I'll just attach it here also. It shows an accurate location of the pivots relative to each other, although I did not dimension the print. To make it work, you will have to move the twin ram cylinder pivots upwards, which will require a longer stroke ram. This isn't hard, it's just something you need to realize before you build it, otherwise you probably won't be happy. Also, I've been thinking about the quick change using two cylinders for about the last 30 minutes (lunchtime), and really, I can't figure a way to build it all and not push the bucket outwards. Unless you are planning on buying an aftermarket bucket and welding on your own mounts, in which case, anything's possible.

For the hydraulics, if you run two cylinders in series (each get half the total pressure), which are identical to the current BX23 curl cylinder, you should get the same load capacity as one cylinder at full pressure, and about the same speed. Otherwise, if you run them in parallel, they will both get the same max pressure, but you will need to maintain half the swept cylinder area to keep the curl capacity the same. Or you can use a bigger cylinder for more curl power and less speed.

Another thing to consider, the second cylinder and brackets are going to add at least 20 lbs, and push the bucket out slightly. My last quick change design was about 18 lbs, and pushed the bucket out about 1.6 inches. Maybe try building a quick change, and if it doesn't work, then go to fabricating a second cylinder.

Quite frankly though, if you are NOT worried about the warranty, why not just build a quick change, and then swap in new, larger swept area, lift and curl cylinders to replace the factory units? If you go with cylinders with larger swept areas, the load capacity will increase dramatically, and cylnders are easier to source than designing and welding something up which may not work as well as you want it.

 

[kennyd]

Wow, For all the work you want to do, and the engeneering that would be required, I think you might just be better off trading that BX in on a JD,NH, or MH.
I am not trying to slam you, but this is alot of work to do that may devalue your tractor in the future.

From personal experience, the QA on the JD works great, I can go from my bucket, to my snowplow, to my forks in a matter of minutes.

 

[rambler]

Adding the 2nd cyl will add a lot of weight. It will also change the speed of your bucket dump - you can Tee off & use 2, but would need 1/2 the cup area each to make them work the same.

Adding the hyd & a grapple will really decrease the load.

Sounds like buying a bigger tractor & loader would be your best route. You are trying to do more than the little fellow can handle.

--->Paul

 

[jim_wilson]

I have thought about the bigger tractor route but with only 1/2 acre to deal with in the end I just don't really need one. The new Kubota B3030 looks mighty nice but the for the added cost over what I paid for the BX23 plus what I would lose on depreciation it would add up to many thousands of dollars. If I could somehow come up with a quick change setup for the BX FEL it would make the tractor just that much more useful to me. When I initially looked at tractors the JD 2210 was the only one of the SubCUT's that had a quick attach FEL bucket. Too bad the Woods backhoe for SubCUT's wasn't out at the time or I might well have ended up with green instead of orange. I could make my attachments just use the stock BX FEL mountpoints but after putting a quick hitch on my 3pt and seeing how much better it made the 3pt for swapping implements I would like to have the same freedom to swap with the FEL also. Thanks for all the info Jared - looks like you have put a lot of thought into this. I have seen some of your other posts about converting your BX FEL to a quick attach. Looks like my next steps are to take a closer look at my BX FEL and maybe make a trip over to the Deere and Massey dealers to see how their dual curl cylinder setups are setup.

 

[JerryG]

Jim,
Have you thought about turning up your pressure about 200 pounds ? Then you could use the ATI system and not lose capacity.

 

[jim_wilson]

I have thought about that too - but I am not sure how to do it on the BX23. Is there an adjustable pressure switch on somewhere in the hydraulics? Is this a good idea or would I be overstressing something in the hydraulics somewhere?

 

[Deerlope]

My 3830 is a little larger than you BX and while I did not buy it with the QA I have since change it over.I also knew that the lift and curl would be less so I got the proper shims from my dealer and increased the hyd relief valve output 300 psi. I just recently made my 7-1/2" Fisher plow QA to the FEL.

 

[JerryG]

<font color="blue">Is there an adjustable pressure switch on somewhere in the hydraulics? Is this a good idea or would I be overstressing something in the hydraulics somewhere? </font>
There is an adjustable relief or a valve that can be shimmed. Maybe someone more familiar with the BX can chime in. As far as over stressing, I have never seen a tractor or loader that didn't have a large safety margin built in.