Hydroelectric or Solar power for a cabin

[scesnick]

I agree, you have to weigh all the factors. A remote cabin is a different story than your year round home. In a year round home nothing is better than good hydro. Even low output means something. A stream that puts out 200 WH 24/7 will give you 144KWH a month. Nothing to sneeze at!

But any mechanical system is going to be less reliable than solar panels. Todays electronics are first class in the dependability arena.

Least reliable, most work, is wind power. I love it but it's a pain in the butt. 200 lbs. sitting on an 80 foot high tower. what's wrong with this picture?

No wind for days then a storm comes in and if the lightning doesn't burn you out the wind will burn up the alternator, knock down the tower or if you're lucky the whole mess will just furl out of the wind and the brunt of the power you've been waiting for all month will be gone forever!

That's why solar panels usually win out. You have to be blessed by God to have a good stream and wind is, well, wind is a lot of wind!

I would have to disagree with just about your whole statement here.

Micro hydro ( once installed) is very low maintenance. Just change the brushes once a year. keep an eye on the batteries and that is about it. But, even better than that , why not just simply remove the turbine from the stream when not at the cabin? the turbines are totally portable and could be removed from the stream in a matter of minutes.

Also, wind is not all that much more maintenance intensive either. The turbine will shut off in high wind and has numerous protective measures to prevent the issues you describe. The towers are VERY secure if done correctly and can easily be tipped down with a small tractor / pickup truck for yearly maintenance/ inspection.
Wind is the route I ultimately decided on. I live at 3,000 ft and it is a class 4 wind zone. The new Skystream 3.7 turbine is net metered, has internal inverter and is right at $5,000. So the only secondary equipment you have to purchase is the wire from the tower to your meter, that is it... This is the turbine everyone has been waiting on. I will be using windpower within a year.

Skystream 3.7

Solar panels ar THE MOST EXPENSIVE alternate power out there. The provide power only in the day time, small amounts in the wintertime, require alot of secondary equipment and it takes quite a few of them to produce any measureable power. Not to mention their is a shortage of them being produced so the wait time is quite a while.

 

[Rob-D]

Not really John,
There are restrictions in my area too. There are, however, ways to harness the power and still support trout life. My personal land is posted, private and precluded to fishing and hunting by the general population.

 

[Rob-D]

I would have to disagree with just about your whole statement here.

Micro hydro ( once installed) is very low maintenance. Just change the brushes once a year. keep an eye on the batteries and that is about it. But, even better than that , why not just simply remove the turbine from the stream when not at the cabin? the turbines are totally portable and could be removed from the stream in a matter of minutes.

Also, wind is not all that much more maintenance intensive either. The turbine will shut off in high wind and has numerous protective measures to prevent the issues you describe. The towers are VERY secure if done correctly and can easily be tipped down with a small tractor / pickup truck for yearly maintenance/ inspection.
Wind is the route I ultimately decided on. I live at 3,000 ft and it is a class 4 wind zone. The new Skystream 3.7 turbine is net metered, has internal inverter and is right at $5,000. So the only secondary equipment you have to purchase is the wire from the tower to your meter, that is it... This is the turbine everyone has been waiting on. I will be using windpower within a year.

Skystream 3.7

Solar panels ar THE MOST EXPENSIVE alternate power out there. The provide power only in the day time, small amounts in the wintertime, require alot of secondary equipment and it takes quite a few of them to produce any measureable power. Not to mention their is a shortage of them being produced so the wait time is quite a while.

OK, the key statement here is, “I will be using windpower within a year.“ Your not using it now and you don’t have the Skystream.

ANY mechanical system is the weak link, ask any installer. What breaks on a VCR? The belts, and the tape transport. The heads wear out etc, etc. NOT the electronics.

Wind is a pain and I’ve done it. You haven’t. What’s your average wind there? Don’t be so sure you’re going to sell gobs of power back to the electric company. Have you ever sat through a blizzard with a mill flying. Tell me what you think of them then. Have you ever put a 200 pound windmill up 60 or 80 feet? No small task. Make sure you remember to take it down once or more a year to check it, the tower stays and all the rest involved in wind.

The Skystrem is Southwest Winds slick advertising just like their slick advertising with the Air’X’. Want to know how many people have them up and get peanuts out of them? It’s a long list. Want to know how many people burn out bearings and fields and sit for two months waiting for SW to get parts out to them? Put that on the list too. I waited over two months for a field.

Solar is very dependable and those panels will run twenty years that way. It doesn’t take any more equipment to run a solar intertie than it does to run a wind interitie. Sunny Boy, Outback? You can’t get more dependable and I’ll bet dollars to donuts they will outlast and outperform SW electronics.

Micro-hydro. Well first we don’t use “brushes” any longer the alternators are brushless NdFeB magnet driven. Then there is ice in the winter and debris the rest of the year. It’s good but it’s still mechanical.

So let me ask, exactly what do you have running and how long have you run off grid?

 

[tensaw12]

Rob-D,
I have 30 acres, with long frontage, on fast flowing stream. No power. How, are you going to get permits to put a waterwheel in the stream?
My land is also posted, however,people still come by in canoes and kayaks and most of them fish.
Let me know if you can do this? I am interested.
Ray

 

[scesnick]

I would go with the micro hydro, regardless of what others say. It is easy, WAY, WAY less expensive and can be easily removed and taken with you for security and longevity.

RonD,
I have weighed out the three ( wind , solar, micro hydro ) and wind will work the best for me without a doubt. I live about 1 mile from a site where US Windforce is instlling 26 commercial wind turbines. Like i said I live in a class 4 wind zone ( 16mph average. ) I live in a constant wind zone. I am almost willing to bet that I have a steady wind blowing more often than I have sun shining.
Putting up the wind turbine up on the tower is not as difficult as you make it sound, a gin pole is needed and the proper tower. it sounds like you did things the hard way and you are now bitter about it..
I never claimed I would be getting rich selling back the power, I never even mentioned sell power at all actually..

did your Sunny boy and Outback inverter come free with the system? No. you have to pay for those along with the panels. The Skystream is one single unit.
The payback on the skystream wind turbine is alot quicker than it is on a solar system. depending on your monthy KWH cost.
I can put up 2 Skysteams and produce roughly 3.6kw for about $16,000 total. How much do you think it would cost to get 3.6kw with solar?

I never said I was off grid. But you are insinuating that since I am not off grid OR have yet to purchase my wind turbine I have no idea about them. I don't know about you but I don't have a money tree. I extensively research anything that I am going the plop down that kind of money on.

 

[scesnick]

Rob-D,
I have 30 acres, with long frontage, on fast flowing stream. No power. How, are you going to get permits to put a waterwheel in the stream?
My land is also posted, however,people still come by in canoes and kayaks and most of them fish.
Let me know if you can do this? I am interested.
Ray

Ray,
The key to producing micro hydro power is the head produced by your stream. There are low head turbines however. I have a VERY nice stream on my property that produced 380gpm+ in the spring and fall but willgo down to 100 gpm in the summer. I have 52 ft of head in about a 600ft. penstock run.
I did all the research and all the calls to the right places and found out that in order to produce the amount of power that my stream was capable of, I would have to buy three turbines ( along with the batteries, inverters, penstock etc..) I didn't want to do it halfway and only produce a small percentage of what the stream was capable of. That is why I decided to go with windpower in the near future. But I have some great wind also or I would have went with the MH for sure.. Wind will also be way less of a hassle to install on my particular project also.

shoot this guy an email.( Paul Cunningham) He is highly regarded as a very knowledgeable Micro Hydro guy. His Stream Engine is one of the best on the market also.
Hope this helps you out... Energy Systems & Design

 

[tensaw12]

Scesnick,

Thanks, I will contact Mr. Cunnigham on Monday.

Thanks again,

Ray

 

[sodamo]

Someone once said - A person of experience is never at the mercy of a person of theory... so I'll post based on my experience.

Am currently living completely off grid in a 650 sf "cabin" as we build our house. I spent about $5K to build a solar (PV) system, 6 panels-742 watts and a Honda EU3000 generator for backup. Basically, except for operator error, it has served us well for last 16 months. We have learned to conserve, but basically we don't suffer a deprived lifestyle. Of course, as stated, the sun doesn't shine all the time and my PV system will output between .6 and 3.2 KW per day. We have pretty good winds normally - the trades have a clean shot off the ocean and normally forecast in the 10-15+ mph range. On those less than sunny days and especially at night, they are even stronger. In theory, adding a wind generator appeared to be the most sensible, cost effective way to upgade my system. Several of my neighbors (all within a mile) also have wind/solar hybrid systems. Their performance varies greatly. My closest neighbor has 1 AirX that produces and a second AirX, recently installed, that barely turns.

So for about another $1200+, I now have an AirX mounted on a tower and hooked in. My wife, my Kioti tractor, and I raised the tower by ourselves - no great effort, but I would imagine that any maintenance involving lowering/raising the tower will be a half day affair at best.

So after 5 weeks of operations, what are my impressions? Definitely feeling underwhelmed at this point. I can stand outside and see the AirX spinning like crazy (with associated sounds) and at night see the LED glowing brightly, but the ammeter needle barely moves (2-3 amps) and surging to 10 amps in stormy conditions. There has never been a night where the battery indicator shows a plus up from wind activity. I haven't given up, can't help thinking I could have added another 250 watts of PV for less money and hassle.

For the main house, we have 4.5KW of PV installed. I had high hopes of adding wind generation to supplement for same reasons as stated above, but unless I somehow experience drastic improvement with my current system, I'll consider micro hydro as we do have a small year-round stream about 800 feet away.

If anyone wants to see pics: http://community.webshots.com/user/ninoledands

A test/comparison of solar/wind (with good and bad wind results): http://www.detronics.net/turbine.htm

My 2 cents of advice to original poster - consider solar with a small generator backup. Build the solar expandable - start with fewer panels but size the wiring, electronics, etc for target system to avoid wasting money. This expansion should include any thoughts of going hybrid. Best of luck however you go. Off grid is pretty great

David

 

[Rob-D]

I would go with the micro hydro, regardless of what others say. It is easy, WAY, WAY less expensive and can be easily removed and taken with you for security and longevity.

RonD,
I have weighed out the three ( wind , solar, micro hydro ) and wind will work the best for me without a doubt. I live about 1 mile from a site where US Windforce is instlling 26 commercial wind turbines. Like i said I live in a class 4 wind zone ( 16mph average. ) I live in a constant wind zone. I am almost willing to bet that I have a steady wind blowing more often than I have sun shining.
Putting up the wind turbine up on the tower is not as difficult as you make it sound, a gin pole is needed and the proper tower. it sounds like you did things the hard way and you are now bitter about it..
I never claimed I would be getting rich selling back the power, I never even mentioned sell power at all actually..

did your Sunny boy and Outback inverter come free with the system? No. you have to pay for those along with the panels. The Skystream is one single unit.
The payback on the skystream wind turbine is alot quicker than it is on a solar system. depending on your monthy KWH cost.
I can put up 2 Skysteams and produce roughly 3.6kw for about $16,000 total. How much do you think it would cost to get 3.6kw with solar?

I never said I was off grid. But you are insinuating that since I am not off grid OR have yet to purchase my wind turbine I have no idea about them. I don't know about you but I don't have a money tree. I extensively research anything that I am going the plop down that kind of money on.

First, I don’t know your area and wind might indeed work best for you. I think, however, when you finally get your tower up you will see what I am talking about.

Secondly, you have very good MH. Even with only 100 gpm and 52 feet of head you have close to 12 KWH of power a day (360 KWH month) figuring 50% efficiency. So that’s conservative. The summer is when you need the least power. With 380 gpm you’re getting over 42 KWH a day! To put iti n perspective one HP = 746 watts. In the fall and winter you would not need batteries, you can sell power back to the grid AND still run your house without solar panels or wind mills. I would definitely look into MH in your case.

As far as having a windmill with the inverter built in I would say that’s not what you want. What you want is to be flexible. When your windmill dies or your windmill inverter dies you’re out of luck. If you have windmills and another source feeding the inverter you have a much better chance of having power if any one element fails. My advice is to talk to a qualified installer in your area. It’s worth paying him/her for the advice you’ll get. A good installer knows what works and doesn’t AND what lasts. The best batteries, the best inverters and they see them everyday. As much as I know about electronics (it's my field) and solar I still did this and I got volumes of good advice.

Personally I think there are better windmills than the SW products, sorry, they may have the best advertising but I’ve built windmills from scratch and I’ve been inside a SW mill. The bearings are not Fafnir or SKG they’re from China. Not that you cant get an ABEC 5 bearing from China but I’ll take a Fafnir any day of the week. I’d check out the African Windpower 3.6 I don’t know how good it is but it’s supposed to be built well and I see a lot of people going with it. The Bergey mills usually run good but I don’t have first hand advice here either. You HAVE to talk to someone doing it everyday, an installer who puts these up and maintains them.

Another thing I wouldn’t want is my electronics on a 60 foot pole. Maybe I’m wrong but I’d like to see something flying for a couple of years before I even considered it.

The other thing I would do is start small. Sometimes it’s better to buy all your stuff from one guy and get a deal, just remember sellers aren’t installers and they have different agendas. Do your homework before you go to the seller. I’ve found out some of these guys wouldn’t know and inverter from an MPPT.

My two cents, actually I think it’s more like a quarter’s worth.

 

[L3650]

Skip the hydro or solar. Go buy a Honda 2000 watt generator. It's very quiet, reasonably priced at about $1,000 and very reliable.

I went through the same thing about 7 years ago when I built my hunting cabin. Save yourself the time and money. I'm 1,800 feet from utilities and the cost to bring in power was over $11,000.