I didn't see the big savings????

Soundguy · Jun 30, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

I'd like to 'fall' into this as well.

I buy the heavy equipment trader mag every week just to poke thru it. Seems there are lenar, various jinma, and bransen, and scorpion, benye..and eicher tractors making up the
'discount' market I know these aren't all chineese.. etc.. but I got to lookin at price.. and when you get to the 30hp area.. the discount units are merely dollars away from big three units.. specifically the tc-30 which i use as a baseline.. as I don't considder it a super robust 30hp tractor either.. so it is a decent apples to apples comparison. In most cases. I say less than 2 grand difference on base models ( no loaders.. etc.. ) That's pretty scarry....

On the other hand.. the biggest differeces were in the 20hp category.. with the jinma taking the cake completely with units at 3999 for 20 hp.. that kicks a tc18/21 all to pieces on price.. Move up to 25 hp range.. and say compair a 25hp jinma to a tc 24 and the margin erodes a bit but is still fairly strong...

Used prices were almost even up... and in some cases.. a new benye was more money than a similar sized domestic that was slightly used ( 100 hours or less ).. go figure..

Package deals seemed to blur the lines a bit. Saw alot of deals that included a tractor, a mower and a cheap implement like a boom or box.. and a 16' trailer for real decent price.. when you considder the trailer has to eat up 1200 or so of the money.. guess in volume that accounts for 1000 anyway..

Just some observations.. not trying to ignite the pool of fuel we are all wading in.

Soundguy

greg_g · Jun 30, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

( and when you get to the 30hp area.. the discount units are merely dollars away from big three units.. specifically the tc-30 which i use as a baseline.. as I don't considder it a super robust 30hp tractor either.. so it is a decent apples to apples comparison)
But apparently back to apples and oranges on the other side of 30hp. Because I haven't seen any of the so called big three that can match the $9995 retail of my KM454. And of course, who do you know that actually pays retail? In addition to the specs listed on http://www.kamatractors.com/KAMAspecs1.htm, it has direct injection, shuttle shift, folding ROPS, a sprung seat, two pair of hydraulic remotes, a remote 12V outlet. That's a lot of 45hp/4wd tractor for under 10 grand.

//greg//

bluechip · Jun 30, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

We'll never get to apples and apples trying to compare the two. They are two completely different approaches to what a tractor should be and a lot depends on what the planned use is for the tractor. I stand firm in my conviction that the 25/28 HP JInma is a closer match to the TC30 than the 30/35HP. As it is the 254 weighs over 3000 lbs and the KOyker 160 loader can pick up nearly twice the weight of the loaders typically supplied on the TC30. Tractors really need to be compared by more specs than just HP.

Keep in mind that of the prices thrown around in this thread, the loader accounts for between 25 and 30% of the price of the Jinma tractor, it may be that the loader on the TC30 is less expensive and that is why there is not as much of a price gap as we might expect.

Trying to find apples and apples, but keep coming up with oranges and peaches and the occasional grapefruit.

I have found that pricing up into the $teens often scares potential customers away from a tractor puruchase here in my neck of the woods.

Even though our Farm Pro and KAMA tractors sit next to Kiotis and Famrtracs (Long) that obviously are of higher overall quality, in the end, so many times, it comes down to the price, and the Chinese tractors outsell the others here by a wide margin.

Chris, If we are standing in fuel, I hope at least its diesel and not gasoline!

bluechip · Jun 30, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

Greg I started replying to Soundguy's post a couple of hours ago and just finished before I saw yours. I didn't even want to bring up the KM454, but I'm glad you did, sure don't want anyone to think I was referring to it as a grapefruit, maybe its the peach!

johnk · Jun 30, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

Not to start a tractor battle here but my jinma 224 2 cylinder has a heck of a lot more power than my neighbors 21 HP Kioti. He just laughs when he sees mine doing 1200 RPM's with a 5 foot bucket of mud and no bogging or hesitation whatsoever. His would stall. I'm not sure of his model but he has the goodyear turfs on the back and shuttle shift. The rear end pumpkin looks impressive with a lot of heft and the fit and finish is better. But power wise my 224 blows him away.

Soundguy · Jul 1, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

( But apparently back to apples and oranges on the other side of 30hp. Because I haven't seen any of the so called big three that can match the $9995 retail of my KM454.)

I'm talking used.. out of the heavy equipment trader. For instance on one page there is a used tc30.. less than 100 hours.. dollars different than a 30hp jinma... also slightly used.

( lot of 45hp/4wd tractor for under 10 grand )

Now that's not a bad deal.. 45hp.. 9999$

Soundguy

Soundguy · Jul 1, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

( We'll never get to apples and apples trying to compare the two. They are two completely different approaches to what a tractor should be and a lot depends on what the planned use is for the tractor. I stand firm in my conviction that the 25/28 HP JInma is a closer match to the TC30 than the 30/35HP. As it is the 254 weighs over 3000 lbs and the KOyker 160 loader can pick up nearly twice the weight of the loaders typically supplied on the TC30. Tractors really need to be compared by more specs than just HP.
)

Unfortunately.. HP as a quick way to gauge work IS what alot of people go off of... " How much mower can I power with this tractor? " That is going to be a pto hp question.. not a weight question on the 30hp tractors. Once you get 2500+ pounds.. you don't have a problem of a 5' or 6' mower overweighting or 'wagging the dog'.

You can't compair a 25hp tractor to a 30 hp tractor and expect that to be apples to apples either... that really throws the 'capability' side of the question to the tc 30... In all honesty.. what do you think is tougher.. a tc30 or a 25hp jinma... .. we know which one has a better warranty...

( Keep in mind that of the prices thrown around in this thread, the loader )

The units I saw both did not have a loader.. so that takes away the chinese vs domestic loader price differential..

Aside from that.. From the post above.. I see this 'kama'? looks to be decent in price as well.. anyone have any details?

( in the end, so many times, it comes down to the price)

I agree...Bottom line usually is money.

Soundguy

Bob_Skurka · Jul 1, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

Soundguy, I think you are making some excellent points, I also did not buy into the 25 hp Chinese versus the 30 hp TC30 arguement, but I didn't address it. You did a great job because the main reason someone would go up is because of the implement size and PTO hp required to run it. In making a hp to hp comparison, because someone needs "x" hp to run a specific implement, there is no way a buyer would choose to compare a 25hp Chinese unit to a 30hp TC30.

Again, however, when comparing the machines, I'm willing to start with the tires. The $9995 Kama is likely equipped with AG tires, but I'm willing to bet the TC30 more often than not has R4s. So to get back to "apples to apples" we need to start off and increase the price of the Kama to $10,995.

To some of the other posts about the chinese tractors being tough, I would question then if they are so tough, why don't they have a better warrenty?

If it all goes back to money, then an informed buyer will really sit down and put a price tag on all these "other factors" that come into play. When all factors are taken into account, I'm will to bet that the chinese tractors are far less attractive than they seem up front. I am not saying they should not be considered. I am not saying they are junk. What I am saying is that they are really not as inexpensive as they seem when other factors come into play. A well informed buyer will see all those factors. A well informed buyer may then choose to buy a chinese tractor and that may be the right choice for that buyer. But I think if more buyers were will informed, there would be fewer chinese tractors sold.

slowrev · Jul 1, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

"I agree...Bottom line usually is money."

Yep its about the money..... sigh...if I could just win the lottery I would buy some more property to park newly aquired tractors on /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ben

MarkNHow · Jul 1, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

The 25 HP to 30 HP is a fairly even HP comparison. Chinese tractor HP is based on a 12 hour test not a 1 hour test. The 25 HP Jinma will actually be 28 HP in a 1 hour test which is what they use here. I can't find the article but I remember reading where the Chinese diesel engines will last 10000 hours. Have to remember they're rough looking but they've been building diesel engines for 60 years.

Bob you do it tactfully but all your posts on this forum only amount to bashing Chinese tractors. You can call it what you will but it's easy to read between the lines.