I need gravel bad!

[schmism]

So when we bought our property in aug of 06 most of the area used by cars was grass. (in front of the barn etc) The reason for this, after years of little use by the previous owner/grandma (who didnt drive) the leaves, dirt, grass grew over a very solid base of gravel that was put down by the owner 30-40 years ago.

you can see what we had in these pics

the way it was the day we came home from buying it.
http://www.snjschmidt.com/pics/property/as_bought/pole_barn2 (Large).jpg

and later that fall same year (2006)
http://www.snjschmidt.com/pics/property/Oct_Nov_06/DSC02487 (Large).JPG

well the grass bairly made it though the rainy spring last year, it was already starting to die off in spots by then, and after we trenched 2 or three diffrent treches across the front, and with regular vehical traffic on it, it was reduced to no grass dirt by the end of last year.

To recap i have a 2-4 inch layer of dirt ontop of a very solid gravel base. (the propain truck does not leave tracks in the area with the exposed gravel.

BUT!

what this has left us with is a worsening 2-3" mud problem. like the cars and even my 4runner needed a tug from the tractor the other morning. Especially with the freeze thaw, it turns into this greesy mess.

After getting stuck rounding the tree to pull into the barn last night (it had been raining yesterday afternoon) I was ORDERED by the boss to get some gravel in ASAP!

But to my question issue.

1) can i just lay 2-4" of driveway gravel (cursher run, 3/4-minus) gravel ontop of the slop? (remember their is a solid base there, some areas ive exposed it already, others it still lies a few inches below dirt)

2) do i have to let it dry? (how much dry?)

3) should i attempt to scrape most of the dirt off?

4) can you put gravel down on frozen ground? does frozen mud cause problems if you put the gravel down on top of it?



As ive said, ive been tasked with getting gravel like "I want you to order gravel today!" so i kinda need to get something worked out

 

[sandman2234]

No clue on this end, at least not any real clue, but what ever your going to do, you better get busy, cause daylight is wasting and the boss won't be happy if the sun sets while your still trying to consider what to do. I would think go ahead and order the gravel and check back in to see if anyone has any good ideas.
David from jax

Just what is "frozen ground", anyway?

 

[Highbeam]

I live in an area where the ground is constantly in the freshly thawed state through the winter. Lots of rain here. It would be a shame to waste that good gravel base that lies below the muck. That good base may be preventing the muck from drying out by perching the water there. In your situation I would add clean crushed rock 1-1/4 to the top which is known as a good rock to puch into and set up around mud. If the mud spooges up through rock then you need more rock or you could dig out those few areas and replace with clean rock.

I don't think you have time to remove all the muck if the wife wants it now.

I'm not a fan of fabric but this might be one of the better applications.

 

[schmism]

im fairly shure if i get some quotes today, and figure out WHO im going to order it from, say im "working on it" and give some sound reasons why we dont want it done RIGHT today.....

i can let it slide for another week or so while i wait for some better weather if needed....

My gut feeling is that i could put it down on frozen mud, but it would squish in later, but not be permantly squishy.

I think i want to scrap most of it off, but have to find weather that is reasonable to do that.

The other pluss is this is baiscly the high spot of the property. the parking/driving area gets sloppy because of rain/thaw not because it "holds" water. a day or 2 after 2" of rain and ill have firm enough mud that you dont track it around anymore.

 

[slowrev]

I would put larger gravel than the crush mix you mentioned. At least a 5-7 size, called 57 around here. Then after that is stable add the crush mix on top if you want.
Not a pro at it , but the way I would do it.

 

[schmism]

hmmm intresting you say that... i do have a pile of left over washed 1.5-2" crushed limestone in the back which is the left over of the base they used before (and in my barn, the crap is the worst to walk on)

but i could put some of that down in the worst spots ASAP as i have it on hand its free. and if it does sink in, no big loss....

 

[wushaw]

I would just add rock where it is needed now and fix it how you like it when it thaws and dries up.

 

[deereguy]

I'd scrape the muck off to the gravel base otherwise the mud will keep working its way up thru the gravel (or gravel into the mud). I know the boss wouldn't like this answer but it beats re-doing the job over and over. If you can add 1" and under (dust) crushed limestone, get it leveled out then drive the tractor back and forth and pack it down, it should be like concrete in a few months. We did this behind a livestock barn, it works well and be scraped off with a smooth edge on a loader bucket.

Good Luck!!

btw- Great job on the clean up around the barn and property!!

 

[riptides]

I am in the same boat as you. We had a new driveway cut in last year and with this years rain squalls and freeze/thaw it needs help.

Basically I am patching with 57a, A small rock and dust mix. In areas where Isee ground, I use 57 (rock only).

This helps the mud.

When the freeze/thaw cycle is over, we will regrade accordingly.

-Mike Z.

 

[jeffinsgf]

I'd get that larger rock on the worst spots right now. Sure, it is going to settle into the mud some, but that's the idea. Digging out isn't going to solve your problem. Building up is what you need to do. Get that 2 inch in there, drive over it for a week or two, then topdress it with some crusher run.

 

[MrJimi]

I'm wonder if this gravel will sink in the ground like stepping on a golf ball in the mud ?

 

[Podunkadunk]

I would put larger gravel than the crush mix you mentioned. At least a 5-7 size, called 57 around here. Then after that is stable add the crush mix on top if you want.
Not a pro at it , but the way I would do it.

I agree with slowrev about the #57 rock, but I didn't use any crush stuff atop mine and it's good to go. I have about 120 tons of #57 rock from Auburn, Alabama on 600' of my driveway. The #57 is awesome if you are going to drive on it, it's big enough that it won't disappear over time and at the same time, it packs nicely. I put some fill clay in some really low spots before he dumped it, but for the most part, it's poured atop soft sand. I've had no washouts or other problems since laying it!

I paid $650.00 per 28 ton load on a 14 wheeled dumptruck in November of 2006. I'm sure the price has gone significantly higher, but that will "ballpark" you.

I plan on getting more in the next few months for a road to my pole barn. Won't do any site prep-work for this...just have him lay it directly over the dirt.

Be sure and lay it a little thick. You said you have a hardpan under the mud, so that's good. You can always hook up the box blade and play on the tractor a while

Podunk

 

[jeffinsgf]

I'm wonder if this gravel will sink in the ground like stepping on a golf ball in the mud ?

One golf ball gets squished into the mud. A bucket of golf balls starts bridging the mud and elevating the grade. The most solid section of my drive was a soupy area that we spread 4 x 6 crushed limestone in when it was a total quagmire. Stands up to heavy truck traffic even during heavy saturation periods.

 

[MrJimi]

One golf ball gets squished into the mud. A bucket of golf balls starts bridging the mud and elevating the grade. The most solid section of my drive was a soupy area that we spread 4 x 6 crushed limestone in when it was a total quagmire. Stands up to heavy truck traffic even during heavy saturation periods.

Thats what I was thinking, It would take a bunch to make it solid again

 

[jeffinsgf]

Thats what I was thinking, It would take a bunch to make it solid again

Doesn't matter. If you let it dry out before you spread the gravel, the gravel is going to sit on top of the soil until it rains. When it rains, it is going to settle in to exactly the same point it would if you spread when it is muddy. You have to allow the gravel to settle in and bridge the soil at some point. If you wait for the ground to dry, you end up with a false sense of project completion.

 

[jeffinsgf]

Thought of another way to explain it.

Place your golfball on the mud and step on it. It sinks.

Place your golfball on the same spot, but when it is dry. Wait for it to rain. Step on the golfball. It sinks just as far. Unless you can stop the rain forever (which I don't think you would want to, even if you could), it isn't going to matter in the long run whether you spread the gravel when the ground is dry or wet.

 

[ray66v]

The gravel will continue to sink and the mud will continue to come up, every time the ground gets soft, no matter what size you use. Geo Textile Fabric is the only way to keep the clay from coming up. It will create a barrier between the stone and the gravel.
I would remove 4-6", put down the fabric. Put down two, 2-3" layers of #304, or #411, moisten and compact between layers. Then cap it, (optional), with a thin layer of #57. This will provide you with a good looking drive that will not get muddy. The money you spend on the fabric will come back in gravel savings.
I have 300'+ of this and most of the year you can jack up a car on it.

 

[jeffinsgf]

The gravel will continue to sink and the mud will continue to come up, every time the ground gets soft, no matter what size you use. Geo Textile Fabric is the only way to keep the clay from coming up. It will create a barrier between the stone and the gravel.
I would remove 4-6", put down the fabric. Put down two, 2-3" layers of #304, or #411, moisten and compact between layers. Then cap it, (optional), with a thin layer of #57. This will provide you with a good looking drive that will not get muddy. The money you spend on the fabric will come back in gravel savings.
I have 300'+ of this and most of the year you can jack up a car on it.

That's a valid point in a great many soil conditions, and I wish I had known about geotex when I built my road. I have some projects coming up this spring that would benefit greatly from geotex material. Where does a regular guy find this stuff for sale?

 

[Highbeam]

Schmism's situation is somewhat unique in that he has a good and solid road beneath the thin layer of slime. Ideally, remove the slime and dress the surface and you're done. Second best is to add large clean rock without fines which will make the slime ooze into the voids between the rock. The rock will eventually sink to the old road grade and then no further. The trick and key to this situation is to know that at some point the existing slime will be absorbed by the voids of the new rock and that the rock will stop sinking. Then top dress as desired. The most common rock in my area that is big but not too big is the 1.25 to 1.5" crushed washed rock which is known to lock together and firm up muddy spots. Much bigger and you can't hardly walk on it, and much smaller and it flexes so much to allow the mud to pump more quickly.

 

[deereguy]

That was my point, my experience has been from a 100+ year old barn yard we use.

Schmism's situation is somewhat unique in that he has a good and solid road beneath the thin layer of slime. Ideally, remove the slime and dress the surface and you're done. Second best is to add large clean rock without fines which will make the slime ooze into the voids between the rock. The rock will eventually sink to the old road grade and then no further.

I didn't bring up geo-tex because I thought it needed to be deeper than 2"-3" to be effective, more like 10"-12".

Geo-tex can be purchased from a pavement or large ashpalt company, usually comes in 12'-15' widths.