Identifying a predator by examining a kill

[tractchores]

Had a bit of time and a thaw to examine the kill a little more. I skinned a few areas (tough as it's half frozen). I found that it was definitely killed by the wounds to the neck as there was a ton of hemorrhaging under the skin all around the neck. It was bitten on the back and front of the neck and there was a fair bit of damage to the upper back by the neck. I found a few puncture marks that put the canine teeth at around 1.5", that's consistent with a dog or coyote and a bit big for a bobcat. However on the sides I found strange marks, which look like scratches where the sides may have been raked by claws. I'm not sure how dogs would do that kind of damage unless maybe a bite that just scratched the deer? The damage to the rear looks to have been mostly done post mordem with scratches and punctures on the sides done while it was still alive. I confirmed the rump has been eaten but that is it, that is more consistent with a bobcat than a dog. Here's a good web page describing signs of various predation: Livestock and predation identification page

So now I'm more confused than before. I guess I'll just wait and see what comes back now that it's warming up.

 

[s219]

Any mountain lions in that area? Northeastern states are known for denying their existence these days, but they are in CT and MA for sure. They will take down a deer with strong bites to the neck, and they have serious claws that can scratch up a hide easily.

 

[/pine]

...I found that it was definitely killed by the wounds to the neck as there was a ton of hemorrhaging under the skin all around the neck...

Not really sure how you can positively state this...most fatally injured/(ill)shot deer die from shock rather quickly...There is a lot of blood in the head/neck region...seems to me that near after death wounds in that region would still bear a lot of blood...jmo...

and I'm not saying it was not coyotes or another predator but if you showed what you described in the OP to anyone around here there would be no doubt that it was dogs...

They take it down and fight over it...one or more (always) tearing into the hind quarters and others grabbing what they can trying to tear or drag it off...it's gruesome and the deer is usually dead as soon as it goes down...but dogs almost always tire of it and leave it...

 

[vtsnowedin]

I don't know how you will ever decide between an experienced pack of dogs and a coyote pack that was disturbed mid meal. True most dog kills show various wounds of amateur attempts and feeding just around the mouth an anis vs. typical coyote kills which show an efficient strangling bite to the throat and evisceration and systematic consumption from soft parts towards harder sections, but a human coming on scene at the right time could interrupt a coyote pack and dogs that have done it more then a couple of times will learn what works and adopt coyote tactics.

 

[tractchores]

Not really sure how you can positively state this...most fatally injured/(ill)shot deer die from shock rather quickly...There is a lot of blood in the head/neck region...seems to me that near after death wounds in that region would still bear a lot of blood...jmo...

and I'm not saying it was not coyotes or another predator but if you showed what you described in the OP to anyone around here there would be no doubt that it was dogs...

They take it down and fight over it...one or more (always) tearing into the hind quarters and others grabbing what they can trying to tear or drag it off...it's gruesome and the deer is usually dead as soon as it goes down...but dogs almost always tire of it and leave it...

You can actually tell the difference between injuries made pre and post death pretty easily. Basically pre-death injuries bleed, blood comes out and if there is trauma it will form bruises, flow under the skin layer etc. Post death the blood is no longer circulating, so you don't see any of this, in fact most of the post death wounds will have little to no blood (as only the blood present in that immediate tissue is there). In the case of the neck injury you can see that there were both crushing injuries (bruising with blood in the muscle and fat layer present when I skinned it) and cutting / penetration injuries (blood on the fur, on the surface of the skin and throughout the areas where the 'wound' was. The post death bites look a lot different, the blood is much less apparent and it looks more like what you'd see if you were to cut a piece of meat.

Think of it this way if you've ever deer hunted. When you shoot the deer blood spurts and kind of goes everywhere. If it's not an immediate fatal wound it continues to flow out and you will find bruising in the meat. When you gut it after death blood is present, but does not spurt out, nor does further bruising result as you carve the meat. Gruesome, but interesting.

Agree on the dogs VS Coyotes VS something else. There's no way to be conclusively sure. The slash marks are odd to me as is the way it was fed on and that nothing came back. That to me suggests its less likely to be coyotes and most likely domestic dog or the local bobcat (though the location - an open area) is unusual for a bobcat, though given the small size of the deer it would have been an easy kill for one.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Had a bit of time and a thaw to examine the kill a little more. I skinned a few areas (tough as it's half frozen). I found that it was definitely killed by the wounds to the neck as there was a ton of hemorrhaging under the skin all around the neck. It was bitten on the back and front of the neck and there was a fair bit of damage to the upper back by the neck. I found a few puncture marks that put the canine teeth at around 1.5", that's consistent with a dog or coyote and a bit big for a bobcat. However on the sides I found strange marks, which look like scratches where the sides may have been raked by claws. I'm not sure how dogs would do that kind of damage unless maybe a bite that just scratched the deer? The damage to the rear looks to have been mostly done post mordem with scratches and punctures on the sides done while it was still alive. I confirmed the rump has been eaten but that is it, that is more consistent with a bobcat than a dog. Here's a good web page describing signs of various predation: Livestock and predation identification page

So now I'm more confused than before. I guess I'll just wait and see what comes back now that it's warming up.

Sounds like a bobcat kill to me, except a cat will try to scratch snow or duff over the carcass to hide it. Cougar kills look similar, but the radius of the scratch will be bigger, because the cat stands on top of its kill to drag the cover to it. If there was no cover, the bobcat may have been scared off right after the kill. They are very shy. It may come back in 2 or 3 days.

 

[/pine]

Think of it this way if you've ever deer hunted. When you shoot the deer blood spurts and kind of goes everywhere. If it's not an immediate fatal wound it continues to flow out and you will find bruising in the meat. When you gut it after death blood is present, but does not spurt out, nor does further bruising result as you carve the meat. Gruesome, but interesting.

Actually I've been a deer hunter for decades...I also consider myself an amateur abattoir...so I've seen plenty of dead deer, cows, hogs, goats etc. etc. and have dispatched and processed lots of animals directly after the heart stops beating...

That said...I confess I am mostly ignorant when it comes to predator kills other than by dogs so like I said it's just my opinion based on your description...

...I hope you do find out what actually attacked and killed the deer...interesting thread...

any chance you could set up a game camera or two to possibly see what is roaming your area...?

 

[tractchores]

Actually I've been a deer hunter for decades...I also consider myself an amateur abattoir...so I've seen plenty of dead deer, cows, hogs, goats etc. etc. and have dispatched and processed lots of animals directly after the heart stops beating...

That said...I confess I am mostly ignorant when it comes to predator kills other than by dogs so like I said it's just my opinion based on your description...

...I hope you do find out what actually attacked and killed the deer...interesting thread...

any chance you could set up a game camera or two to possibly see what is roaming your area...?

Sorry, didn't mean it to come across that I was implying you weren't familiar with it, just trying to provide a real world example a lot of folks might be familiar with. I am pretty limited in my experience too, having just been a deer hunter, but had the pleasure of knowing some vets who do necropsies and had asked a friend what to look for in terms of the damage.

I setup 2 game cameras on the carcass, one for video and another for stills. I have some in the woods all the time, so I know there are coyotes and a bobcat in the area. Coyotes are here constantly, the bobcat is very ellusive and I haven't seen it since fall. There are domestic dogs roaming free for sure, I stopped one chasing a deer last year (deer ran right by me so I was directly in the dogs path and able to stop it). It got extremely cold right after the kill, but is warm now so hopefully I'll get something on the game cam in the next few days.

 

[/pine]

Sorry, didn't mean it to come across that I was implying you weren't familiar with it, just trying to provide a real world example a lot of folks might be familiar with. I am pretty limited in my experience too, having just been a deer hunter, but had the pleasure of knowing some vets who do necropsies and had asked a friend what to look for in terms of the damage.

I setup 2 game cameras on the carcass, one for video and another for stills. I have some in the woods all the time, so I know there are coyotes and a bobcat in the area. Coyotes are here constantly, the bobcat is very ellusive and I haven't seen it since fall. There are domestic dogs roaming free for sure, I stopped one chasing a deer last year (deer ran right by me so I was directly in the dogs path and able to stop it). It got extremely cold right after the kill, but is warm now so hopefully I'll get something on the game cam in the next few days.

I really admire your intrigue...IMO, natural (wild)life mysteries are something that many people never get to explore or are oblivious to...to me they are what makes the world go round...!

Again, very interesting and informative thread...

 

[jimmyj]

Seems like canine of some sort, you'll probably never know if it was dogs or coyotes. Although it could have been a really big angry hamster.... I had a very mean hamster once and I still haven't gotten over it.