IH Cub 682 Engine Replacement

[Fordlords]

I am looking to replace the original tired Kohler KT17 twin in my CC682, it is losing compression. The only drop in replacement for this tractor from Kohler is the KT17 Series II, which is over $2000. (Shoot, I can get an engine for my CAR cheaper than that LOL) The only improvement I see SII has over my old KT engine is higher oil pressure, other than that is is basically the same now somewhat antiquated engine still with points and no oil filter standard on it.

I see this one engine warehouse sells a Honda GX610 V Twin commercial grade engine as a replacement kit for the KT17. The kit will bolt the Honda engine right in, and in calling these people who sell it they said the Honda will run smoother, quieter, cooler, start easier (esp. cold, I use a snow blower), and use less gas than the KT17 SII plus it has an oil filter and should last every bit as long if not longer than the KT. Best part is it costs over $700 less than the KT, and that is for the entire conversion kit.

Just curious if anyone here with a 682/782 CC has installed the Honda replacement engine, and what they think of it in comparison to the original Kohler. If no major reserves from anyone, I am going to go Honda. OK, so my old Cub will no longer be an, "All American," tractor, but I just can't see spending $700+ more for a lesser engine just to be patriotic /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I searched the web high and low, and could find nothing negative to be said about the Honda GX610, so this replacement sounds like a no-brainer.

-Fordlords-

 

[DmansPadge]

I don't have any experience with that particular engine... but I've never seen a Honda I didn't like! They really build some great engines.

I just hope the 'ol Cub is in good enough shape to justify the cost of the new engine.

Good luck!

 

[Fordlords]

I forgot to mention the tractor is in fantastic condition. It was bought new by my dad in 1980, and he always cleaned and maintained it and fixed anything when it broke, and I have continued its legacy, so there is some sentimental value to it for me. Plus it looks really cool and I think it is built much better than the $2700 plastic and aluminum, "high end" new Cub at my local Tractor Supply store.

This original KT17 Kohler engine acccording to many on the web was a piece of junk with oil problems and rods seizing to the crank, but we have had no problems with it, it still runs well, but compression is low 90 PSI on both cylinders and it is starting to smoke, use a lot of gas, and tick- signs of tiring out after 25 years of use. The 682's mower deck and snow blower were refurbished a couple of years ago, and the steering and brakes on the tractor are tight. I gave it a lot of thought and yes, I think this tractor with a new engine is worth the investment as it might very well still be alive 25 years from now /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I don't think I could ever part with this tractor, and really would like to put the proper classic Kohler engine in it, but I think the Honda engine will make it an even better machine than is was new. I've owned many Honda products and have yet to have one that was a disappointment. They keep their quality and reliability at world class levels.

-Fordlords-

 

[DmansPadge]

All that said.. I don't blame you a bit for wanting to hang on to it. And no dought the old ones were built superior to the newer ones. I also think that the Honda will be a very nice improvement.

I'd love to see some pictures of it if you have the means of posting some. And ohh yeah... welcome to TBN!

 

[Fordlords]

I bit the bullet and purchased the Honda repower kit. I will take and post some pictures while I am doing the engine swap once I get busy on it. Thanks for the welcome /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[JerryG]

I don't know if it will fit, but a Kohler CH18 is only $1220. Give the guys at Tulsa Engine Warehouse a call and ask them what will fit that is less expensive. These guys really know their stuff and are willing to help. About a year ago, we bought a B&S 16 hp twin for only $600 from them. They also have free shipping on engines.

 

[OhioGuy]

Hey Fordlords,
I hope that works out as well as you hope. You know how every project has a couple of unforseen hitches or downsides, let us know what they were. Better yet, tell us there weren't any.

I've got an 1872 with 800+ hours that's still running strong, but I would consider that option, when the time comes. It's the 18 Horse Kohler Magnum, a really great engine, but not at all fuel effecient. My 5252 has the Kohler 25HP OHV and it burns about half as much fuel on the same job, pretty amazing!

Good luck, we want pictures. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Curt

 

[Fordlords]

No one looks to have a kit to convert the old KT17/Magnum 18 engines to a Kohler Command for a Cub yet. The Command engines look to be very similar in design to the Honda GX series, the Hondas being only slightly more expensive.

A lot of people say the KT17 series I was little more than a boat anchor, and in fact on a Deere forum it was said that JD replaced all the KT17's put in JD 317's with Onan P18's under warranty due to rods seizing to the cranks. Cub never addressed the issue bacause at the time these initial failures were occurring was right when International sold Cub Cadet to MTD and the KT issue was never brought up by MTD Cub to Kohler. We never had any issues with the KT Series I up until now in the Cub, and short of it being a real gas-hog like the Magnum (virtually the same engine) we were happy with the KT17, always a smooth runner.

This place called Small Engine Warehouse in Indiana where I bought the Honda from makes conversion kits for a lot of the old classic tractors along with selling original engines too for many of them. If my Cub was one of the ones with a single cylinder engine there is no doubt I would buy it a new Kohler K series cast iron engine. But the stake went through the heart of replacing my KT17 with a series II not only with cost but I read on another forum that even the switch to full pressure lube did not solve all the woes with the KT design.

I can't wait to get my new engine and start spinning the wrenches /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Anyone out there with a boat want an old KT17 to anchor down with for free? It still runs good (just a little smokey) and is probably very rebuildable, but from what I read it is not engine worth rebuilding.

-Fordlords-

 

[Fordlords]

I got back home today, and the crate with Honda GX610 engine retrofit kit from Small Engine Warehouse was ready and waiting for me. Just from the get-go, opening the crate, it was obvious this is a very impressive, quality built engine. Equally impressive are the components Small Engine Warehouse includes with the Cub Cadet retrofit kit- every component is of the highest quality available, even the exhaust system was much better than shown in the photos, even more solid than the stock Kohler system, and it also has it’s own fabricated sheet metal air shroud, just like the OEM setup.

Removal of the old Kohler KT17 was a breeze, that part took about 45 minutes. I had to work alone, and lifting the old KT out was a nut-buster. I set it aside and put everything back on it I had to remove to get it out, as it still ran maybe someone will give me fifty cents for it LOL. Really, it wasn’t a bad engine at all, gave 25 seasons of faithful mowing and snow blowing, just low compression and smoky, signs of a tired beast.

Start to finish, installation of the new GX took about 5 hours. A solid 2 of those hours were what I’ll call, “DUH??, what the F%$#,” hours. Only major complaint was the VERY vague instructions SEW gave me with the engine kit. It was a text only sheet that was universal for all their kits, and mainly centered on what needed to be done for a John Deere 400 kit, and not the CC kit. The drive shaft side was easy to figure out, the PTO clutch took a bit of fitting like a jigsaw puzzle as without photos to show you how to place each part of the clutch and the spacers and set it properly one must have some beyond basic mechanical skills to get it figured out and set up properly. I will admit this kit is not for your weekend oil-change honey-do guy, you do need some above average skills, it’s not an exact drop in.

They fail to point out you need to remove all the old mounting bolts, and as the front two stay in place on the 682 unless you pull the engine mounting plate off the tractor frame, you figure you can leave them in and re-use them. Wrong- once the engine is set in place and drive shaft lined up, it is obvious the new front bolts go in the slots in front of the ones with the bolts in place that were not used before. I lifted the engine out again, and instead of removing the mounting plate I just zapped the old bolts off up top with a rotary air cutter, and knocked them out from underneath. Then securing the new engine is a simple matter of lining things up and tightening the new bolts, included in the kit.

Only defect I came across with the kit was while doing the wiring. The positive wire from the new engine regulator/rectifier was loose inside its connector that snaps to the old connector on the tractor. I took the time to carefully solder both wires solidly inside the new connector, which was a crimp on and snap in place connector, it wasn’t crimped securely enough from SEW. Shaky stuff on charge systems burns up R/R’s and alternator stators fast, and I compromise nothing in regards to wiring.

The throttle cable enters on the opposite side of the Kohler. Plenty of slack, but I had to drill a hole in the firewall to get it to line up with the new carburetor connectors and clear the fuel tank. The old choke cable ends up being too long, and it’s hard to fuss with it to get it out of the way and open the GX choke smoothly. I got it to work fine, but it’s a, “man-choke,” requiring some beyond average pulling force to work it. A much shorter choke cable will definitely remedy this problem.

Once the fuel pump primed up the carburetor, the Honda GX came right to life, and just a slight adjustment to the idle speed was all that was needed to tune it. Funny part- other than at idle where it is whisper-quiet, it sort of sounds just like the KT17 at throttle up, a nice, powerful sound! Once finished, I think the GX fits the tractor even better than the KT did, it looks very natural in the 682. Don’t let pictures fool you, the GX is a BIG engine physically, with its overhead valves, it takes up more room under the hood than the KT did. With its impressive credentials, I think it’s what CC would have used for the 682/782 if it were available in the early 80’s. Overall I had a great time installing this retrofit engine kit, and short of the terrible instructions, I am pleased with the initial results. Now I just have to get the sheet metal pieces back from painting, and cut some grass this spring to see how the GX really shakes. J If someone has a place for me to download some good photos, I will, this site only allows 100k, and my digital camera can’t take anything that small even on its lowest quality setting.

-fordlords-

 

[Fordlords]

Well, it was 65 degrees in Buffalo yesterday when I thought I completed my work on the GX. One quirk I noticed yesterday was when I turned the key to start, the engine would not start until I actually released the key to the run position, then it fired right up.

Today it was about 20 degrees out LOL! I went out, and the engine would not start at all, not to save my life. It would crank, but not so much as a pop. I pulled one of the plugs, and it was wet with gas, so I knew the fuel pump, choke, etc were OK. I then looked for a spark on the plug. There was none when cranking, but it then sparked right when the key was released to run with the engine still spinning from the starter for about a second. That was enough to fire me up when warm yesterday, but definitely not right for an engine installed on Friday the 13th. I determined that the ignition was being de-energized with the key in the start position. One thing stated in the kit instructions was that no starter solenoid was required with this engine. This made NO logical sense, as there is no solenoid switch on the new starter, and the original ignition switch itself is not rated to handle the current of a starter motor, nonetheless the amount of heavy gauge wire that would be required for an ignition switch that is. I looked at the schematic included from Honda, and determined that the ignition end needs to remain hot in both run and start modes. On the old Kohler apparently that was not the case as the simple two wire connector to the alternator/ignition remained the same on the conversion.

I found on the firewall that the positive lead to the hour meter remains hot in both run and start modes. A wire spliced up on this connected to the hot end of the alternator output/ignition feed got me the spark I needed when cranking, and the engine fired immediately once this was put in place. The tractor headlights need to be in the circuit to absorb the residual power from the alternator during shutoff to keep it from trying to re-energize the starter solenoid when the key is clicked to off. Viola, I think I’m finished LOL!

I cut the old choke cable shorter and bent a new end on it, and drilled some neat new holes for the control cables through the firewall. After 1 hour of gentile break-in, the Honda GX is sounding better and better- and might I add it looks awesome in the tractor, definitely a professional fit!

-Fordlords-

 

[Maveric]

I bought an old 1650 cub cadet once that had the wrong ignition switch installed that behaved the exact same way. It was a trade in and the dealer didn't take time to troubleshoot it and I bought cheap as a result. The switch that was installed was for an engine that made its own ignition (magneto), the Kohler had an automotive type coil and points. What it really needed was the proper switch installed but I just ran the hot wire for the ignition thru a toggle switch which worked out well because the old single cylinder Kohler turned over hard and I could get it turning over first then turn the ingnition on and it would fire right up! Sort of crude but it worked ok.

 

[MajMac392]

It sounds like the Honda is a good solution for your unit. Pictures would be nice to see the fit and finish, etc.

 

[Fordlords]

I do have great photos showing this project, and will host them somewhere when finished and link to them.

I floored my buddy the other night when he came over and looked at this project- I just looked at him and said, "Don't know if it will work, but this new engine sure looks boss!" That got him spitting up some beer /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif







-Fordlords-

 

[aaabelha]

Post them right here. This site has a section for member photos and it is easy to use.

 

[Fordlords]

Picture #1: Old Kohler KT17 Series I twin just prior to removal from 682 frame.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/data/526/25195100_0626-med.JPG

Picture#2: Honda GX610 OHC V-Twin installed and running in the frame. Note with left engine panel removed access is very easy to all necessities, including oil drain valve (hose goes to old location underneath tractor), oil filler cap, oil filter, and primary fuel filter. There is a secondary fuel filter between the fuel pump and carburetor. Right side has the ignition module, starter, and wiring harnesses. New made to fit muffler and sheet metal cooling shroud were supplied with the kit as was the oil drain valve. Air filter assembly has replaceable paper element and foam pre-filter. Carburetor is single Mikuni, and there is a Mikuni mechanical fuel pump as seen in pix.


http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/data/526/25195100_0628-med.JPG

I am awaiting the sheet metal parts from my painter and will apply new decals, and I got hold of a brand new 44” mower deck housing that I will be installing new spindles and other parts on to that will complete the refurbishing of the tractor. I have spent more cash on this project than I care to mention, but I love this tractor, (kind of the way women love diamonds), enjoy doing the work, and should end up with one solid performing and great looking machine that will still be around for another 25 years of thrills and spills! I bought some neat cosmetic gizmos such as a Hobbs hour meter and a pair of diamond plate footrests along with the new Carlisle tires that will add a bit of flair to the old 682.

-Fordlords-

 

[DmansPadge]

Man... thats looking great! The new Honda looks right at home in the Cub. I can't wait to see the finished product.

 

[Fordlords]

Here is the 682 just about done. Only waiting on a new mule belt as the original has stretched to nearly the max on the adjuster, but on inital tests it has operated perfectly. The 44" deck with additional scuff wheels has a brand new housing and new mechanicals. Honda engine with 5 hours on it now runs.. well, like a Honda.. 'nuff said! It truly blows the old Kohler KT17 away in every aspect. (Except life, and only time can judge that!) I have about 100 hours of labor into this project. Other pix shows fit of Honda GX under the hood. Only problem- it now looks so nice I don't want to cut grass with it /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif (So I cut snow /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif) Thanks to everyone here for their encouragement /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif



http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/data/526/25195100_0640-med.JPG

http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/data/526/25195100_0641-med.JPG


For those who would like to restore a Cub like mine, here are the parts suppliers I used:

Honda GX610 engine conversion kit: Small Engine Warehouse, Dunkirk, IN
Very highly recommended supplier! www.smallenginewarehouse.com


Deck Parts: Wright Equipment Co, Farmington, IL www.cubcadetstore.com
Very highly recommended supplier! Excellent!


Wheels, assorted deck parts: Carter and Gruenwald Co, Brooklyn, WI www.cngco.com
Highly recommended supplier

Tires: Tires Unlimited, www.tiresunlimited.com Highly recommended supplier

Cosmetic Parts: CC Specialties, www.ccspecialties.org
NOT a recommended supplier

Other Cosmetic Parts: Various sellers on e-bay www.ebay.com

Special thanks to Larry Robinson of Precision Collision, Irving, NY for the paint work!

-Fordlords-

 

[DmansPadge]

Awesome job Fordlords! It came out looking great. Well worth the time and effort.

 

[joseph39421]

WOW!!!!! Now thats one fine mower, I know how you feel about keeping that older mower goin. Im the same way here, my dad gave me his old Snapper and he took very very good care of it like your dad did on your Cub, this mower has no rust at all and mows wonderful, its a 1980 model also, noone cant getover me still running this old mower, but its special to me.

 

[Fordlords]

Another inspiration for refurbishing the 682 happened to me about 10 years ago. My grandfather had a Jacobsen Chief 800 that when after he died I used to go over and mow the grass for my grandma on when I visited. Even at like age 8 I learned that Kohler cast iron engines were butt-kickers. It had a cool vinyl snow cab and blower, and aluminum deck and grandpa fabricated a hydraulic lift for the deck. That sweet machine was promised to me, yet when I was old enough to get it I found out one of my older cousins had already stole it and ran it into the junkyard, which upset me greatly. I made efforts to insure that did not happen to the Cub as I was its primary user as a teenager (hense its great condition) and it didn't get into the hands of other members of my family who would for sure destroy it.

The pure inspiration to refurbish it came from my 3 year old nephew who went ga-ga over the thing when he saw it at the house last summer. He just called it red tractor-tractor /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif It sort of reminded me of myself and grandpa's Jacobsen, and my nephew will for sure inherit the 682! Grandma (my mom) already has him driving her little Craftsman while sitting in her lap /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

-Fordlords-