IH PTO Problem - Help!!

PROFarms · Apr 25, 2015

Hi Guys
I have an IH 444 Diesel, like the IH 364 in USA, and i just purchased a haybob. I tried to run it up and i just couldn't get it to engage with the haybob attached. In the end i had to shut the engine off, engage the pto, then restart the engine. Then it ran fine and everything was ok. Could it be that the hay bob is too big for the tractor or could it be something more serious??

DJ54 · Apr 25, 2015

Do they have a two stage clutch..?? Could be you weren't fully depressing the clutch pedal far enough, or the two stage clutch needs adjusted.

If it's working properly, the pto should start rotating, before the tractor starts moving, while in gear. That way if you start your implement, such as a rotary cutter, before getting into tall grass, your implement is operating, before you drive into it. Or, if baling hay, you can start the baler operating, then start forward motion with the outfit. Not like trying to start it all, operating/moving all at once.

PROFarms · Apr 26, 2015

DJ54 said:
Do they have a two stage clutch..?? Could be you weren't fully depressing the clutch pedal far enough, or the two stage clutch needs adjusted.

If it's working properly, the pto should start rotating, before the tractor starts moving, while in gear. That way if you start your implement, such as a rotary cutter, before getting into tall grass, your implement is operating, before you drive into it. Or, if baling hay, you can start the baler operating, then start forward motion with the outfit. Not like trying to start it all, operating/moving all at once.

No, not a two stage clutch, i asked the question on here before and apparently it is independent PTO so you don't need to depress the clutch to engage PTO. as i said, its fine to engage it with no load on, but when the haybob was on, it wouldn't engage, was just grinding when trying to engage it. I did try to depress the clutch as much as possible but didn't make any difference

geneP · Apr 26, 2015

There is no independent PTO on that tractor. The independent PTO ended in the mid '60s and was a separate box on the rear of the housing and had external linkage running to it from the engagement lever. Your PTO clutch is either stuck (frozen to the flywheel) or out of adjustment. Can you feel a "step" in the clutch pedal about 2/3 down?

PROFarms · Apr 26, 2015

geneP said:
There is no independent PTO on that tractor. The independent PTO ended in the mid '60s and was a separate box on the rear of the housing and had external linkage running to it from the engagement lever. Your PTO clutch is either stuck (frozen to the flywheel) or out of adjustment. Can you feel a "step" in the clutch pedal about 2/3 down?

I can assure you that it isn't a two stage clutch on the tractor and that it is an independent PTO, we had a mechanic come out and look and he told us it was independent, and that it was the PTO clutch that needed replacing.

jimmysisson · Apr 26, 2015

So you didn't believe the mechanic? Not sure why you're asking about your PTO. It does sound like a stuck clutch. A hay bob is not too heavy or hard to get moving so it shouldn't be too much for the tractor. Confused.
Jim

PROFarms · Apr 26, 2015

Yes, i believe the mechanic, i posted this before he came out to have a look today. After what you guys have said, I'm getting another guy out tomorrow to get a second opinion on it. Think you guys might possibly be right, having looked in the shop manual it says that the PTO is either constant running or transmission. This is where the guy told me it was independent PTO http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/owning-operating/329252-ih-444-a.html?highlight=

geneP · Apr 26, 2015

The link you referred to is vulcancowboy telling you that his 464 is similar to yours and has an independent PTO. The 464 does have a hydraulically actuated PTO, but the 444 has what is referred to as a "live" PTO in that it has a two-plate clutch at the flywheel. Sometimes the terminology gets confused, but they are not the same.

Quebecguy · Apr 26, 2015

"I have an IH 444 Diesel, like the IH 364 in USA"

Hello PROFarms,
I've got an IH 444 Gas tractor and I think it is the same as an IH 354 in the USA. Anyway my tractor has the two stage clutch.

PROFarms · Apr 26, 2015

If it is a two stage clutch, how come I can't feel a step in the clutch? Would that be because the clutch has gone bad? It was suggested that I may need a new pto clutch plate. Been looking at the shop manual and it looks like a pretty big job whatever it is. Entire split of the tractor isn't it?
Also if it is a two-stage clutch then what sort of pto is it?

Quebecguy · Apr 27, 2015

Hello again PROFarms,
Thinking of the old adage "when all else fails, read the manual" I have just been looking at the Operators Manual and have learned a few things. In the Specifications section four different clutches are listed: Standard, Heavy Duty, Dual-engine and Dual-PTO. The first three are 11 inch and the last one is 9 inch.
In the Preparing the Tractor for Work section it is stated that three types of PTO were available for this tractor: 1. Single Speed Standard Transmission Power Take-Off giving 545 rev/min at engine 2100 Rev/min.
2. Single Speed Constant Running Power Take-Off giving either 545 or 745 rev/min at engine 2100 rev/min.
3. Two Speed Constant Running Power Take-Off giving either 545 and 745 rev/min or 545 and 1000 rev/min at 2100 engine rev/min.

There is a laughable typo in this section: referring to the operation of the Single Speed Standard Transmission PTO it says "CAUTION: This P.T.O. must be used in the HIGH range of gears. In the Instrument and Controls section it says "The single speed regular P.T.O. must NOT be used in the high range of gears." I suspect the second statement is correct!

If the tractor is equipped with the Two Speed Constant Running PTO there will be a low/neutral/high lever located on the side of the transmission case about 6 inches ahead of the brake pedals.

I just went and tried the clutch on my tractor and the two stages can be easily felt so I guess you have the Single Speed Standard Transmission PTO.

I have just reread your original post and it has occurred to me that what you are describing is entirely normal for my tractor for the last 30 years or so (I don't remember it being like that when the tractor was new). When trying to engage the PTO make sure the motor is at the slowest possible idle, sometimes it will "pop in" other times one has to keep some force on the lever (not enough to really grind it) to feel for the spot when it will pop in. When I will be using the PTO I usually engage the lever as I am cranking the starting motor. To me this is a minor nuisance and I would certainly not consider splitting the tractor in two to repair it.

I hope this has been of some help to you.