Illegal Drugs and Anthrax

   / Illegal Drugs and Anthrax
  • Thread Starter
#21  
Yikes - as an engineer that reads widely it strikes me that the final stages of preparation would not actually be that hard. I won't go into details, but ...

In particular, for separating the clumps of bacterium there are numerous 'washing' processes commonly used in different aspects of biotechnology that would do the job.

The hardening process of anthrax bacteria into spores strikes me as being not that hard if you merely follow the natural process. i.e. gradually deprive the bacteria of moisture, nutrients (don't want to shock them too hard). That's why they evolved that natural state of existence in the first place. If the bacteria were washed and stored in liquid suspension in a particular way then I can think of a number of ways that they could then be gradually dried that would allow this to happen. I agree it's not easy - but there are industrial processes that do similar.

Of course, another tack is to change the delivery mechanism so you can make sure the bacteria are ingested or inhaled while still in a nutrient-rich liquid. That way you don't need to harden them into spores.

Also, to obtain a strain of anthrax I'd probably look through reports of where anthrax is common today globally and silently trot off to one of those countries to collect a sample (India or an African country probably). Much easier (and quieter) than digging up soil in an area of the US where anthrax was previously reported and you would draw attention. Even easier would probably be to slip a thousand bucks to a health official in one of these developing countries where it is endemic. Of course, you might argue that a good way to get spores would be to hang around major media company offices these days (that's not a joke).

I'm a little more worried about this now - and starting to think that the fellow on TV who claimed only a handful of people had the skills was either delivering propaganda or has very low expectations of Joe Engineer/Jill Biotechnologist. I think with a budget of $50,000, some practical lab skills and a few years of engineering experience, this project would only take a couple of years. Certainly no harder than many PhD projects I have seen (which are actually not that hard - don't live under any delusions). Major component of the recipe would be patience.

We'll be seeing more of this - and I hope as a country we devise a good punishment that will fit the crime. At this point it's going to be all about deterrence.

After all, if we're scratching our heads trying to work out if it's actually illegal then we can't claim to have a good deterrent in place yet can we? It just hasn't been taken seriously until now.

Patrick
 
   / Illegal Drugs and Anthrax #22  
RPM,

I am a computer software engineer/consultant. I have some limited exposure to biochem/microbiological laboratories. I designed biochemical laboratory equipment computer interfaces (way back) in college (as part of a project automating a protean sequencing lab). My last hands-on microbiology (excluding home brewing 5 gallons of beer a few years ago) was in high school where I did some bacteria culturing and did an independent project preparing a tissue culture of mouse heart tissue. I read a lot. I tinker with a tractor, machine tools, electronics and computers.

I see the problems/tasks which someone solved to produce Anthrax as something very do-able with money and time. This is frightening. I can hope that it is just my ignorance of the scope of the problems.

In the context of the interview the expert was talking of the number of people who KNOW all the details today and could walk into a lab and start production. I assume these people are the researchers who worked on Anthrax for USAMRID (and of course Ken Alibek).

He was not talking about the number of people capable of developing the technology in a couple years. I agree with you that it appears that anyone capable of PhD level lab work could develop the technology given time and supplies.


I am afraid that any punishment that "fits the crime" will be unacceptable to our courts.

At least deterrence is possible for foreign government sources, assuming we make an example of the host of the Anthrax lab, presumably Iraq. If we let Iraq off, we will see far worse.

The possibilities for spending money go beyond buying the culture for a thousand bucks. There are tons of weapons grade material in Russia. The USSR maintained 100 tons of Anthrax, 20 tons of fresh smallpox and ... . The troops guarding these stockpiles are in the Russian army, an army which can go for 4 months without paying or sending supplies for solders. It is reported that link there are tons of Anthrax spores barried in drums in a landfill on an unguarded island on the Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan border. The island Vozrozhdeniye (Renaissance) Island in the middle of the Aral Sea was a USSR bioweapon test site. How much would it cost to get in and dig up a drum?

There is talk today that the Anthrax in the Senate was not "Weapons grade". This seems to be a statement that the Anthrax is not antibiotic resistant, not a retraction on yesterday's news that the Anthrax was single spore particles.


The books I recommended in a previous thread were 'Biohazard : The Chilling True Story of the Largest Covert Biological Weapons Program in the World-Told from the Inside by the Man Who Ran It', (by Ken Alibek) and 'Plague Wars : The Terrifying Reality of Biological Warfare', (by Tom Mangold, and Jeff Goldberg).

An additional book can be added to the list: Jonathan Tucker's book 'Scourge: The Once and Future Threat of Smallpox' is another way to loose sleep. Tucker states that there is circumstantial evidence that Iraq and North Korea have weaponized smallpox (in addition to the Russians).




Ed
 
   / Illegal Drugs and Anthrax
  • Thread Starter
#23  
Yup - this is truly a Pandora's box. Whoever did this to us in the US has opened the box and we will never be able to put all the bad things back in the box again ...

Patrick
 
   / Illegal Drugs and Anthrax #24  
Pitbull, I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that documentry was made in 93 or 94. The main thing about the Taliban is that they are religious to extreme. I've heard Muslims say that drug abuse goes against the Koran, or is it Quran? Anyway, the poppy fields were a burr under the Talibans blanket, but they needed the dough. It was thought that it would be gradually phased out. But they surprised everyone when this year they said no more poppies.
I wonder if it may be because of money brought in by bin Laden. If that is true, we may find that the Taliban and Al Quada are even more intertwined than we think.

Ernie
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   / Illegal Drugs and Anthrax #25  
You may be right about the date, don't remember looking (I usually do on those things to see how current the info is, just one of my many oddities!)

You bring up their religious beliefs, I remember a film I saw in high school about the nomadic traders of the middle east. The traders sold lots of hash but made very clear they did not use it themselves due to their Islamic faith. They saw nothing wrong with "infidels" frying their brains or profiting from it. I also remember that every burnout in class was ready to move to the Middle East!

Strange how I remember trivial information like that but can't remember what I did with the 1/2" wrench I was just using. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Anyway, I hope you're right about the poppy fields.



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   / Illegal Drugs and Anthrax #26  
RPM

USA Today had an article about the Anthrax hoaxes. One of the cases was a guy that called a school or something and threatened them with Anthrax. He is under arrest and charged with threats using a weapon of mass destruction. The penalty is LIFE.

If the penalty for threatening is life, what must the penalty for possession be?

SHF
 
   / Illegal Drugs and Anthrax
  • Thread Starter
#27  
SHF - good to see you back posting!

Re: Threat to use anthrax

I did hear that there was a life sentence now being talked about. This is an interesting point though. Think of another situation - it's legal to own firearms but illegal to threaten someone with them or use them maliciously. Just because there's a life sentence for threatening to use anthrax doesn't mean that there should be a penalty for safely posessing it.

Now why someone would want to posess anthrax is a different issue - but it is an interesting legal challenge.

Not all cultivation of bacteria or other microscopic organisms is bad. Think of bread-making, cheese-making (blue-cheeses anyway), wine-making, beer-making etc. I wonder how the legislation will define what is and what is not bad?

Patrick
 

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