In floor heating vs. radiant vs. forced air in shop??

   / In floor heating vs. radiant vs. forced air in shop?? #151  
"Once again, I'm afraid"

Don't be it isn't that scary or hard to grasp.. Personal politics? I'm having trouble seeing your point of view/definition of that given the number of other people using the term prior to my usage. Maybe you'd prefer Kalifornia? IT really isn't personal when it is in wide usage.

Radiant heat was pioneered by the Romans, one of the few things the Chinese don't claim to be first with. The romans had public housing with furnaces in the basement and hollow tile floors and walls as chimneys.

The Chinese may not be big with radiant heat but they are really big with earth sheltered housing. There are 10's of thousands of Chinese (if not millions) living in earth sheltered housing. (not all are in caves but a significant number ARE living in caves.)

Oh, please eschew ad hominems for a friendlier exchange. Thank you.

Pat
 
   / In floor heating vs. radiant vs. forced air in shop?? #152  
Patrick,

The radiant pressure is the industry standard of 12 PSI. This rises some with temp. Boiling temps are ABSOLUTELY avoided at all cost. No way. Never. Period!

Notice I said some exceptions about the tubing in the floor. This applies to shower walls, but it's just a homeowners specific request. The main focus of the system is to heat the living area, not the shower walls. These walls do heat anyway from the nice warm floor. There were some radiant ceiling systems put in oin the '70's. These were done for cost and space savings and are generally regarded as a bad design with way less comfort. But if you like it that's all that counts.

I always heat closets too. But only to about 10-20% of the surroundings. This dries shoes and warms coats a bit.

Commercial carpet pad and the proper carpet don't inhibit radiant too much, but less is better. Throw rugs over a cork or a bamboo floor are nice ways to go.

Of course bubble insulation was succesful for you. Who said it wouldn't be? Successful at what is the point. The only way to accurately meassure the benefit would be to build two identical homes, one with and one without, then measure the difference. For my money and considering that insulation merley slows heat travel, not stops it, I would rather not have my structural slab sitting on bubbles. I'm sure you'll be fine though.

Many folks get sold the idea from the air conditioning guy that "since we're in there anyway, lets add heating to the air conditioning. That way, when the radiant doesn't work, you can turn on the instant hot air system and avoid that terrible period when the house is cool for a bit". I hear that all the time and when checking back the same people always say they NEVER turn on forced air because it is loud and dusty and uncomfortable. But I'm glad it worked for you in a situation where you have an insulated floor (carpet and pad) and a low BTU delivery rate.
 
Last edited:
   / In floor heating vs. radiant vs. forced air in shop?? #153  
On a closed system what is a good additive for the water, and a source.

DRL
 
   / In floor heating vs. radiant vs. forced air in shop?? #154  
   / In floor heating vs. radiant vs. forced air in shop?? #155  
Glycol alone is not a sufficient measure. There are outfits to whom you can send a water sample and they will tell you what if anything you need to add to "tame" your solution.

I know someone who had "EXPERTS" with decades of experience install a radiant system. All went well for a few years and then... seems the hydronic towel warmer got a pinhole leak due to corrosion. Then within a couple weeks the expansion tank (5 gal steel tank with neoprene bladder) sprung a leak. Also the coaxial heat exchanger in the heat pump used to heat the hydronic fluid was corroding up so bad the over temp shut down was tripping the unit off line.

The system was flushed with tap water and the coaxial heat exchanger was cleaned out with special solutions. Fresh glycol was introduced along with other chemicals designed to protect the system from corrosion over time. An annual fluid test is performed for free. The company does it for free and the results of the test are reported in which of their chemicals and how much is needed to balance and protect the system.

If anyone is interested I will ask for the source of the chemicals, their names, etc. and report back.

The critical issue with the homeowners was that they were not informed that anything could possibly go wrong, and that annual tests would be a good idea. The HVAC installer/seller may not have had a clue and been operating in the ignorance is bliss I know everything I need to know my mind is made up don't confuse me with facts mode for 30 years.

When are we the most dangerous? When we don't know that we don't know!

Pat
 
   / In floor heating vs. radiant vs. forced air in shop?? #156  
Adding anything besides pure water to a radiant system opens another discussion. The reason for doing this is corrosion resistance or freeze protection.

Ethylene or propylene stop corrosion and provide freeze protection, but contamination of the drinking water is an issue. Usually, there is a fill regulator connected to the domestic water system that automatically fills and maintains the system pressure. This is a possible path into the drinking water side if the domestic pressure is lost. Never use ethylene glycol if there is any cross connection to the house water system. Propylene glycol is not poisonous and can be used in this way, but it's still not advisable without an approved backflow preventer.

Freeze protection is not usually a concern and so another additive can be used. I use a product called Formula 10 corrosion inhibitor. This is a one time dose that does not wear out and is non toxic. It also helps the pumps start after a seasonal shutdown.

The reason we put in an inhibitor is because oxygen gets into the system. This does not occur in closed loop systems with metal radiant tubing. But it does occur with PEX or other non metalic tubing. Even oxygen barrier PEX tubing. The term for this is oxygen permeation and means oxygen can pass through the non metalic tube wall into the system. This oxygen finds the iron parts like the pump, the expansion tank, the boiler heat exchanger, or other, and causes corrosion. In the worst cases it severley damages the system.

Since all modern systems have, or should have, PEX tubing, they all must have a good additive. The best for non freezing applications is Formula 10 with 1 quart per 50 gallons water, the best if you are concerned about freezing is propylene glycol in a 30-50% solution with water. Propylene comes in pre-mixed or pure forms. Pure would mix 50-50 and pre would go in straight. Then add enough water through the fill system to bring the pressure to 12 PSI. Maintain the connection through the fill regulator to make up losses as the air bleeds out. Of course, all of the additives go in after the system has been thoroughly flushed and tested. Once a year take a small sample of the propylene in a cup and put in in the freezer for a test. Be sure to have valves in all appropriate places for servicing the boiler, the expansion tank, the pump, etc. This way you'll lose the least when you open the system up to fix something.

By the way, the fill valve and expansion tank should connect to the system at the same point. This point should be a tee with a valve so you can completely isolate these items for testing and service.

When widespread use of plastic or rubber tubing in radiant systems became common, back in the early '80s, there was no understanding of the oxygen permeation problem and tubing had no oxygen barrier. Tubing manufacturers were competing and there were a lot of tubing types on the market. Installers had no knowledge of all the problems they might be getting into. There is a parallel to the thermal solar industry where many saw an opportunity and jumped in, but few really understood it or have spent the time to figure it out.

When copper or steel was the tubing of choice, back in the '50s and '60s, this oxygen problem never occured. So the industry never had to deal with it. That's why you might see an old closed loop radiator system and boiler from the '40s that is still clean inside. Closed loop used to mean no corrosion concerns. Not now.

Even today, inhibitors seem, to many, like an option that is unnecessary, especially with the new oxygen barrier tubing. Or they just don't think of it. Some try to use only potable rated equipment in the radiant system. This isn't the best solution either.
 
Last edited:
   / In floor heating vs. radiant vs. forced air in shop?? #157  
Thanks guys, I don't think I need to worry about freezing so am interested in the Formula 10. How about a good source.

DRL
 
   / In floor heating vs. radiant vs. forced air in shop?? #158  
Found it again - although it appears that what he is selling is not EPS, but poly-isocyanate foam board:

Insulation-Factory Seconds

Raspy - any comments on my question regarding the suitability of poly-isocyanate .... as opposed to extruded polystyrene ?

And thanks for the answers/clarifications on the layout/tiedowns.

This guy is not close to Northeast Ohio, but I have purchased EPS from him in the past. He is southeast of Columbus.

Wayne's Building Supply
 
   / In floor heating vs. radiant vs. forced air in shop?? #159  
DRL,

It's very uncommon that freezing is a concern. I highly recommend Formula 10. No need to overdo the doseage. About 1 qt per 50 gallons or 1 quart for about 2500 sq ft of radiant area. The numbers are approximate, but the effective working range is very wide. Do not mix it with propylene glycol!

Two sources I know of are Hydronic Specialties at 800-786-6847 and Infloor heating. I think Infloor's number is 800-615-6901. Or you might find them on-line at 2HSC.com and Infloor.com


John
 
   / In floor heating vs. radiant vs. forced air in shop?? #160  
Thanks, I'll give them a ring.

DRL
 

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

2018 Lexus IS300 Sedan (A51694)
2018 Lexus IS300...
2012 L3 MEP-806B GENERATOR (A52576)
2012 L3 MEP-806B...
2013 FREIGHTLINER CORONADO TANDEM AXLE DAY CAB (A52576)
2013 FREIGHTLINER...
2006 Chevrolet Express 2500 Cargo Van (A51692)
2006 Chevrolet...
2015 International ProStar Truck, VIN # 3HSDJSNRXFN563873 (A51572)
2015 International...
2015 Ford F-450 Service Truck, VIN # 1FDUF4GT7FEC15731 (A51572)
2015 Ford F-450...
 
Top