Introductions and 3pt Tiller Reality Check

[apmonte]

Well, I guess it's time I stopped lurking and started posting. I guess I'll start with a bit of an introduction and move on to my question(s). Hi - I'm Aaron, and I like Tractors! I moved up from a Cub Cadet 2135 last spring to a used 2001 John Deere 445 with 217 hours on it. I'm very happy with this tractor, although, truth be told, I'd really like to have a CUT - JD 2320 or bigger. But.. then there's the fact that I live on a postage stamp of a city lot. (< 1/2 acre) The 445 is already more tractor than my lot needs, although my lot does have some special needs. I've already come to terms with the fact that this isn't about need as much as want. What I really need is to temper that desire with some reality and come to an acceptable compromise. While money isn't a primary concern, it did enter into my decision into buying a nice used 445 for $5,000 instead of a new X7xx for $10,000. See, I am reasonable.

I've attached some pictures to show the more problematic areas of my back yard. The house is a ranch with an exposed basement and the back yard drops off 9' below the basement. You can see the slope on the side of the house. It's one of the reasons I got the 445 - for the differential lock. The back yard is also a water retention area - it gets wet down there. Last year I put my garden at the top of the back hill and that worked out fairly well. This year, I will expand it further along the top. The picture I attached with it freshly tilled was done several years ago by a friend and his really nice Kubota + 5 or 6' tiller. He came over to move 24 yards of dirt for me and tilled my back hill while he was there. My lot stops just past the bottom of the back hill. Eventually, I might like to plant something garden like on the back side of the hill.

So, I'm happy with the 445 - I picked up a 4-way blade to plow snow, and that's working beautifully. (more tractor time, YEA!) What I really want next is a rear tiller. Yea, I know, my garden isn't that big and I could get buy with my brothers front tine tiller that's sitting in my garage. But honestly, that thing beat me to death last year and took a lot of time to make the ground reasonably decent. Remember, this isn't really about need. The way I see it, if I'm going to put a tiller on the 445, I'll need a 3-pt and a rear PTO kit. I haven't priced the PTO yet, but I expect it to run about $600 unless I can find one on E-bay. Assuming this all works out, then I need a tiller. Beyond struggling with the cost of the PTO and 3-pt, I'm also struggling to define acceptable parameters for a tiller. I believe that a limited Cat-1 3-pt will be limited to about 450 lbs. Maybe someone can confirm. Further, how wide a tiller can I throw on it? I thought that JD made a 50" tiller for this class of tractor. I've been looking at something more in line with a Lands Pride RTR05 series. In many ways, I'm really struggling with the cost of doing this. Mostly from a PTO and 3-pt aspect resale value aspect. I contemplated selling my 445 and looking for another tractor with a 3-pt and PTO. That might prove difficult and time consuming though and may not actually save me any money in the end.

If things work out, I'd like to get a 40 loader down the road and could see using the tiller as ballast. The cost of the FEL doesn't bother me so much because I know it will hold it's value fairly well and could be sold independently. Mostly I'd use it to move lots of mulch and some occasional dirt and stone. I don't have a wheelbarrow or wagon either, so maybe it could double for that.. yea.. that's it.

Anyway - sorry for rambling. I've been lurking and reading for over a year and I know this is a good group of guys, so I hope that you can help a brother out as I struggle with the inner tractor demon within me.

Thanks,

Aaron

 

[mjncad]

Welcome Aaron, and you scored one nice 445. That series of small tractor seems to be one good piece of machinery from what I read by others that have them. I looked at a used 455 with a loader when I decided I needed more tractor for my 2-acres than the 455.

As I recall, the 3PH on the 400 series from that time period is actually a Cat 0, so I suggest you double check that before spending money on a 3PH and implements.

My first house sat on a true postage stamp lot of 0.1-acres; so you have much more room than I ever did in that place.

I assume that's open space of some sort behind your house. If so, you got free space even if you can't do anything with it. It sure beats having a house behind you.

 

[apmonte]

Hi Mjncad -

Yea, I recall that the 3-pt from JD is a CAT0, but from what I've read, Ruegg offers a limited CAT1 3-pt for around $400. And postage stamp might a bit harsh, but it feels that way compared to some of the beautiful acreage that some of you have and that I desire.

And there is an empty field behind my house. Part of it is right-of-way for overhead transmission lines. The rest of it is kind of low lying, so we hope that they're never able to build on it. (it's been proposed in the past and rejected) If someone were to build back there, it might motivate us to move and find some acreage of our own. Other than lot size, we're quite happy where we're at. Thanks for the reply.

Aaron

 

[CHDinCT]

Hi Mjncad -

Yea, I recall that the 3-pt from JD is a CAT0, but from what I've read, Ruegg offers a limited CAT1 3-pt for around $400. And postage stamp might a bit harsh, but it feels that way compared to some of the beautiful acreage that some of you have and that I desire.
Aaron

I see you're already aware of the Ruegg 3PH. I purchased one for my old X485 that I had prior to buying my BX. It was Cat 1 limited. I don't know for sure, but I think the same hitch would fit your 445.

I know what you're going through justifying a bigger investment in a tractor. Even though I have 2 acres, I started with a 12 hp garden tractor, then bought my 20 hp Wheel Horse and added the plow, wheel weights, chains and tiller over time (all bought used). From there I bought a used X485, added the 3PH and found a used 45 loader for it. It was a sweet machine, but circumstances led to the need to sell it last year. When my economic situation improved, I decided to go for a sub cut and ended up with the BX. While I can justify the BX for my situation, the WH can do about 80% of what I need to get done.

I would say, if you were debating a new X7xx series with loader, 3PH, rear PTO and tiller and all vs a new sub-cut 2305/2320/BX, I'd go with the sub cut. 4WD, 3PH, rear PTO all come standard, more capability and for the same or even lower price. If you think you'll ever aquire more property, I'd think about selling the 445 and buying a used (or new if you can swing it) sub-cut. The sub-cut will hold it's value better too.

 

[LBrown59]

1* While money isn't a primary concern, it did enter into my decision into buying a nice used 445 for $5,000 instead of a new X700 for $10,000. See, I am reasonable
2* I got the 445 - for the differential lock.
3*to put a tiller on the 445, I'll need a 3-pt and a rear PTO kit.
4*Assuming this all works out, then I need a tiller.
5*I believe that a limited Cat-1 3-pt will be limited to about 450 lbs.
6*I thought that JD made a 50" tiller for this class of tractor.
7*In many ways, I'm really struggling with the cost of doing this.
8* Mostly from a PTO and 3-pt aspect.
9* I contemplated selling my 445 and looking for another tractor with a 3-pt and PTO.
That might prove difficult and time consuming though and may not actually save me any money in the end.
10*I'd like to get a 40 loader down the road and could see using the tiller as ballast.
11*Yea, I recall that the 3-pt from JD is a CAT0, but from what I've read, Ruegg offers a limited CAT 1 3-pt for around $400.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

1*I didn't buy A new x 700 but I was looking at used x 455's hoping to get one of them for a lot less than one of these .
4 years old used. -------- new .
These were a lot less than $4800 to $6000 for the 10 to 12 year old X 455's I'd been looking at.
They also have 4 WD 3 point hitches and rear PTO's which the X 455's did not have.
Both of these were such good deals I couldn't make up my mind which one to get so I bought them both.
2*4 WD will do you more good than differential lock although these 2 tractors have it also.
Judging by the wet spots in your lawn it sounds like you need or could use 4 WD.
3*That's what put me off about the x 455 .
4*By the time you add a tiller 3 point and rear PTO you are going to be into it for more than what I have in the used BX with a new tiller on it.
5* A Cat 1 hitch won't fit a x 445.
6*Seems to me a 50'' tiller would be pushing it.
I'm running a 48'' on one these and I would not want to go any larger.
7*I can see why as you will probably have as much give or take some in the less capable
garden tractor than you would with a Subcompact.
You are in exactly the situation I did not want to get into and why I went with a subcompact over the x 455 I was considering.
8*I don't blame you as that was what really turned me off about the x 455 I was thinking about.
9*It saved me money and the headache of fiddling and fooling around messing with getting PTO's and 3 Point hitches installing .
10*Compared to A sub Compact the x 455 or x 455 loader has a pretty weak lift.
11*Yeah but will the x 445 have the ground clearance need to operate it.
L B

 

[LBrown59]

I know what you're going through justifying a bigger investment in a tractor. Even though I have 2 acres, I started with a 12 hp garden tractor, then bought my 20 hp Wheel Horse and added the plow, wheel weights, chains and tiller over time (all bought used). From there I bought a used X485, added the 3PH and found a used 45 loader for it. It was a sweet machine, but circumstances led to the need to sell it last year. When my economic situation improved, I decided to go for a sub cut and ended up with the BX. While I can justify the BX for my situation, the WH can do about 80% of what I need to get done.

I would say, if you were debating a new X7xx series with loader, 3PH, rear PTO and tiller and all vs a new sub-cut 2305/2320/BX, I'd go with the sub cut. 4WD, 3PH, rear PTO all come standard, more capability and for the same or even lower price. If you think you'll ever aquire more property, I'd think about selling the 445 and buying a used (or new if you can swing it) sub-cut. The sub-cut will hold it's value better too.

Good advice.
Implements should be easier to find too.
Probably lest costly also.

 

[RollTideRam]

It seems like someone on here has a hydraulic tiller on a 455. Is that an option? JC

 

[apmonte]

It seems like someone on here has a hydraulic tiller on a 455. Is that an option? JC

Hi JC - Given the right tiller in good shape, I'd certainly consider a hydraulic tiller. My understanding of hydraulic tillers is that they tend to be smaller due to the limitations of the tractors hydraulic systems. (flow rates, etc) Also of concern is availability. It's probably the wrong time of the year to expect tillers to show up on E-bay or Craigslist, but a quick search of E-bay completed items shows one JD 42 tiller that sold for $1250 that may require modification to fit my 445. (John Deere 3 Point 42 Hydraulic Tiller X465 X585 X700 - eBay (item 370142096648 end time Jan-09-09 18:38:57 PST))

Near that price point (tiller only), I wonder if a PTO tiller might perform better and have a bigger resale market.

Aaron

 

[LBrown59]

(
John Deere 3 Point 42 Hydraulic Tiller X465 X585 X700 - eBay (item 370142096648 end time Jan-09-09 18:38:57 PST))

$1250 for this used is more than the $1100 I paid for a new tiller
Mine is also a 4 foot tiller not a 3 and one half foot one..

 

[apmonte]

$1250 for this used is more than the $1100 I paid for a new tiller
Mine is also a 4 foot tiller not a 3 and one half foot one..

I agree. My thinking is that I would get a much better tiller for less money with a PTO driven tiller - regardless of whether I keep the 445 or get a new tractor. Despite my enthusiasm, I can not in good conscious attempt to justify a CUT of any kind for my property. A 2210 or 2305 would be sweet, but it's just to much tractor for this property. I'm reasonably certain that my 445 already outclasses every tractor in the neighborhood. It certainly drew a crowd when I mowed with it the first time.

So if I keep the 445 and get a PTO kit and a limited CAT1 3-pt, which tiller should I hang off the back, given the limitations of this tractor? What kind of weight and size limitations should I use to narrow my search?

 

[ChuckinNH]

Perhaps the KingKutter XB series would be a good place to start. They have a pretty good reputation, and are designed for smaller sub cuts, and would likely work on your JD. They are available around here through the Tractor Supply Company (TSC). One local JD dealer had a new hydraulic tiller deeply discounted since it has been around for a while the last I knew. Hmm, just checked KK's web site, and the tiller is close to the max weight for you..... here's a link
King Kutter Incorporated

 

[KentT]

I've gone through similar growing pains... from Simplicity garden tractors to a Kubota SCUT and then a Power-Trac PT-425. I kept the Simplicities all the while (though I did own one with a factory FEL for a while, then sold it) because I have a 1/2 lot and the larger machines were for prepping my 5 acre retirement site. It took me two tries there (actually three, because I originally thought the Simplicity with FEL wight be of value) to get the right equipment package for my needs.

I've had a 32" tiller for the garden tractors and now have a 46" (actually a 36" plus optional tine extensions). I find it is of limited value on my 1/2 acre lot, and is only used twice a year at most, for prepping my garden in the spring and tilling things under in the fall, as stated in a different thread. I use my 16" Troybilt Pony far more in the garden because I can cultivate with it, once planted.

My advice would be forget the tiller for now, and certainly don't invest in the 3pt just to add one. It'll be too big for most of your needs, anyway.

Instead, rent a large tiller or pay for someone local to expand your garden and focus instead on how you'll cultivate and maintain that garden, once you've expanded it. That points toward a walk-behind, and IMO a rear-tine one, not the front-tine one that'll beat you to death (yeah, I tried one of those also, before buying the Troybilt 20 years ago).

You can always keep an eye out for a bargain on a used tiller designed for your JD, but like I said, you'll likely find it of limited use...

IMO, save your money and save your JD, by looking at a smaller tiller for your ongoing needs...

 

[LBrown59]

Near that price point (tiller only), I wonder if a PTO would have a bigger resale market.

Aaron

It should
since a PTO tiller can be marketed to tractors with or without Hydraulics but a Hydraulic tiller can only be sold to someone that has a hydraulic tractor.

1*I agree. My thinking is that I would get a much better tiller for less money with a PTO driven tiller - regardless of whether I keep the 445 or get a new tractor.
2*A 2210 or 2305 would be sweet, but it's just to much tractor for this property.
3*I'm reasonably certain that my 445 already outclasses every tractor in the neighborhood.
4*So if I keep the 445 and get a PTO kit and a limited CAT 1 3-pt
5*which tiller should I hang off the back, given the limitations of this tractor? What kind of weight and size limitations should I use to narrow my search?
6*Despite my enthusiasm, I can not in good conscious attempt to justify a CUT of any kind for my property

1*Think you're right.
2*You left out the Kubota BX23 24 and 25 along with the MF GC 2310 and 2410 or even the Simplicity Legacy XL all comparable to the JD.
3*I know My BXs outclass every tractor in my neighborhood - 4 of them have 3 JD garden tractors the other one has a JD lawn tractor.
That don't bother me non cause I didn't buy the tractors for them I bought them for me.
I did however do some small Jobs for about 4 of them free of charge because their garden tractors would not handle the task.
4*You said you had $5000 in the JD,
Add the PTO and 3 point $1000
Now yer at $6000 and still no tiller and only 2WD.
used tractor with new tiller.
I have $5525 in this one or $6250 if you want to count the MMM and it includes the tiller and 4 wheel drive.
I don't count/use the mower because I have a mower on the other BX1500.
If you want to figure it with the new BX1500 instead of the used one it comes out to $7500 without the mower or $8950 with the mower including the tiller and 4 wd.
5*I have a CC GT 2554 Garden tractor with a new 30'' tiller for it.
This tractor is in the same type/class of tractor as a JD x445.
As you can see tillers are smaller for garden tractors than S-Cuts.
6*I can especially when it comes to more features and capability for about the same or less money.
===========
I would highly recommend you look into new and used BX 1500 1550 and 1560 tractors.
I would recommend other brands but Kubota is the only Manufacture building a tractor than fits in this slot.
These are a bit smaller than the JD 2210 or 2305 Kubota BX23 24 and 25 MF GC 2310 2410 an the Simplicity Legacy XL.
I should know : I have a BX 23 to compare them with .
My BX1500s drive nicer than my CC garden tractor and are more nimble too.
They don't feel any bigger or bulkier than the Cub Cadet either.

 

[apmonte]

Thanks for the replies. With the costs quickly adding up, I think I'm going to hold off on a tiller solution for now until I've had some more time to think about it. I just can't see spending 2-3k for a 445 based tiller solution. Upgrading the tractor spends that much or more for the same result. My garden is not that big - I can certainly get by this season with my brothers front tine tiller. I'll continue to work on a longer term solution over the course of this year.

Thanks again - Aaron

 

[LBrown59]

Thanks for the replies. With the costs quickly adding up, I think I'm going to hold off on a tiller solution for now until I've had some more time to think about it.
I just can't see spending 2-3k for a 445 based tiller solution.
Upgrading the tractor spends that much or more for the same result.
My garden is not that big - I can certainly get by this season with my brothers front tine tiller. I'll continue to work on a longer term solution over the course of this year.

Thanks again - Aaron

I can't either.
And the sad part is when you get done you still only have a 2 wheel drive garden tractor out of it.

I don't blame you.
I wouldn't it do either.

 

[flusher]

I agree. My thinking is that I would get a much better tiller for less money with a PTO driven tiller - regardless of whether I keep the 445 or get a new tractor. Despite my enthusiasm, I can not in good conscious attempt to justify a CUT of any kind for my property. A 2210 or 2305 would be sweet, but it's just to much tractor for this property. I'm reasonably certain that my 445 already outclasses every tractor in the neighborhood. It certainly drew a crowd when I mowed with it the first time.

So if I keep the 445 and get a PTO kit and a limited CAT1 3-pt, which tiller should I hang off the back, given the limitations of this tractor? What kind of weight and size limitations should I use to narrow my search?

Here's the pto-driven tiller I use around my 10-acre place, mostly for the veg garden.

It's a 1974 Bolens G1453 with 32" rototiller and 42" mower deck that I found on craigslist for $600.

When I put in the landscaping 2 years ago around the new house, I used my Kubota B7510HST/LA302 FEL (21 hp engine, 17 hp pto, $12600 new in 2005) and a $300 Yanmar RS1200 rototiller (48" wide).

 

[LBrown59]

.

1*1974 Bolens G1453 with 32" rototiller and 42" mower deck
2*When I put in the landscaping 2 years ago around the new house,
3*I used my Kubota B7510HST with Yanmar RS1200 rototiller (48" wide).
4*/LA302 FEL.

1*I too have a Bolens set up similar to yours.
It's a 1968 Bolens model 850 with a tiller just like yours except it's a 24''tiller with a 38''mower deck and a 42'' dirt/snow blade.
2*I've done a lot of landscaping with my:
3*Kubota BX1500 with a 48'' KK tiller on it.
4*My FEL is on a Kubota BX23.

 

[artfull dodger]

Keep in mind, that if the 445's rear pto is the same as earlier John Deere 400 and 300 class machines, its not a 540 rpm, but more like 2000rpm, the industry standard for a catagory 0 rear pto. This will limit you to the tillers that JD made for the tractors. I know for the older 300 and 400 class machines, JD offered both a 48" pto shaft drive tiller, and a Hyd driven tilller. The Hyd drive has a seperate pump that is driven off the tractors shaft drive either on the rear or from the mower deck pto, not sure if the Hyd was an option on yours though. You might want to join and post over on the weekendfreedommachines website, its dedicated to the garden tractor size John Deeres and many guys have that model and can help you even better than this awsome site. That tractor will more than handle your garden needs, you just need the proper guidence on what tilller model you need. The factory JD tillers for the older 400 class fit the standard Cat 0 hitch. Most guys with the smaller 300 class, like my 318, run the hyd tillers. the big 48" pto drive tiller tends to push the smaller tractors around a bit. I put my garden in the old fashioned way. I plow it with a 1 bottom moldboard plow, then disc it several times with a disc harrow. Then I can get in with a rake and make my rows and do the planting. The plow and disc harrow together are less than what the tiller would cost, and take up much less space. Hope to see you over on the WFM website. Mike

 

[LBrown59]

Thanks for the replies. With the costs quickly adding up, I think I'm going to hold off on a tiller solution for now until I've had some more time to think about it. I just can't see spending 2-3k for a 445 based tiller solution. Upgrading the tractor spends that much or more for the same result. My garden is not that big - I can certainly get by this season with my brothers front tine tiller. I'll continue to work on a longer term solution over the course of this year.

Thanks again - Aaron

I bought a new Cub Cadet GT2554 with 54'' mower 30" tiller and 42'' front blade back in Nov. 2005.
I have only put about 85 hours on the tractor.
The tiller and front blade have never been on the tractor so remain unused.
Sound like you could use something like that.
To bad you aren't closer .