Is DEF that bad?

[2515R Dude]

Buy a branson or TYM and remove all this bs. Plenty of info how.
Too bad I did not know it before.

 

[WM75Guy]

Somebody that has one needs to weigh in if that model has to regen and any issues with the DEF system. If it is truly using DOC/EGR/SCR with DEF as shown on the website, there is no regen function. DOC and DPF are 2 separate and distinct processes. DPF requires a regen, DOC does not as it runs at a constant high temp to burn off the soot. DOC/EGR is what NH went with for the Workmaster series, DEF was not required as the series is not over 75HP. There is not even a mention of emissions procedures in the owner's manual nor are there any warning lights or buttons on the dash for emissions. There are some trouble codes in the service manual related to the EGR sensors. My solution to stay out of trouble is when using it I drive it like I stole it, 2000 rpms, which is PTO speed.

 

[Seven Gables]

I thought the E stood for the economy mode the PTO was able to use. Not a different line of tractor. Is that correct/incorrect?

Edit. I'm incorrect. E from M is the difference of a chassis and a lot of other stuff. Looks like I'm on the search again.

As the owner of both a 2018 5085E and a 2019 5115M I can tell you I wouldn’t be concerned at all about the stoutness of the 5085E’s build quality. Both share the same 4.5l engine which isn’t even breaking a sweat to make 85hp. The M just has the fuel delivery cranked up to make 115hp. Front axle and trunion pivot are virtually the same with the E axle rated at 5950lbs and M just over 6000lbs , both very stout. The biggest difference in the M’s heavier bare tractor weight that I can see is it’s heavier rear axle and 3 pt lift construction. However the E’s is still plenty robust. 5085E comes standard with 12 speed power shuttle, M gives you a 16 speed PS. Both can be ordered with same 540M loader, excellent HD loader with the global quick hitch. E has 16gpm flow to the rear remotes , M is around 19gpm I believe, either is plenty.
As far as def issues with either I haven’t had any and haven’t heard of any major issues.

 

[Atypical_decorum]

And it won’t pump tons of soot and other pollutants into the atmosphere as well as the 3306 in your dozer, either.
Its also noteworthy that a DPF is an exhaust after treatment system that is repairable and replaceable.
Given the choice, I’d rather not have one, too. However, the world of diesels changed over a decade ago and DPF or DEF systems are as common on a diesel engine as an alternator.

It traps them, then lights them up all at once later.

Again, pooping in a bag and saying you don't poop then dumping that bag later....

 

[Hay Dude]

It traps them, then lights them up all at once later.

Again, pooping in a bag and saying you don't poop then dumping that bag later....

I run 8 diesel engines, so I don’t need the tutorial and I understand how they work. I really dislike diesel after treatment systems. I’m not here to defend them. They decrease reliability. I also go out of my way to run diesels that are pre 2012 on the equipment side.
But there’s going to come a time when the older diesels have run their course and there won’t be many pre-emissions diesels left.

Best we can hope for is design improvements, or breakthroughs that are more reliable.

 

[Hay Dude]

I’m pretty sure the 3306 isn’t killing the environment. It actually runs pretty clean compared to a lot of old diesel. If it actually mattered that much they should have started with trains and boats and planes.

Yeah I don’t know why you feel the need to tell me that. I pretty sure one guys small diesel isn’t killing the environment, either. Now maybe a couple million running at the same time might have an affect, but even then I’m doubtful.
Currently I have 8 diesel engines and only one has an after treatment system.

I think the diesel emissions systems are a scam and a joke, too.

IMO, “screw the little guy” is why it’s on trucks and tractors and not ships, trains, etc.

But I don’t make the rules, the EPA does and if you want newer equipment over 25HP, you’ll have to run with DEF/DPF.

I just hit 50,000 miles on the 2020 Ram. Its run harder in a month than most people run a truck in a year and no issues. Of course a sensor is going to fail someday, but there’s not much I can do about it.

 

[rockinbbar]

But I don’t make the rules, the EPA does and if you want newer equipment over 25HP, you’ll have to run with DEF/DPF.

This is where we are with things.

Not only did the govt mandate that systems that have not been refined and perfected be placed on all American consumer level diesel products, but the consumer has to not only pay for that crap, but pay for the very expensive replacement and repair cost of that crap. And pay the higher fuel costs of operating their mandated crap.

But again, it's a double standard. The biggest single operator of any type of equipment/vehicles not equipped with consumer mandated emissions crap is.....the U.S. Govt.

 

[Hay Dude]

This is where we are with things.

Not only did the govt mandate that systems that have not been refined and perfected be placed on all American consumer level diesel products, but the consumer has to not only pay for that crap, but pay for the very expensive replacement and repair cost of that crap. And pay the higher fuel costs of operating their mandated crap.

But again, it's a double standard. The biggest single operator of any type of equipment/vehicles not equipped with consumer mandated emissions crap is.....the U.S. Govt.

Screw the little guy, the taxpayer, just a guy trying to make a living.

 

[mikester]

Is DEF/DPF that bad?


5. Prone to failure.

The one that really counts in my books is #5. DEF and all its additional sensors and computer controls make the engine very complex meaning special expensive tools and software are required to service the equipment.

Added complexity means more things that can potentially go wrong. That also translates to potential higher operating costs.

If you are running a business you can't afford down time meaning you now need two machines, one to work and the other as back up. will You also have to deal with regen cycles and paying operators to sit around waiting for parked regens to complete. When the machine suddenly stops working you are now waiting for a tech to come and fix it on site or float it to the shop for diagnostics and repairs.

Manufacturers are moving towards the cellphone model of business where customers pay and arm and a leg for new tech, and when it stops working you throw it away and buy new again. Win - win scenario.

 

[rockinbbar]

The one that really counts in my books is #5. DEF and all its additional sensors and computer controls make the engine very complex meaning special expensive tools and software are required to service the equipment.

Added complexity means more things that can potentially go wrong. That also translates to potential higher operating costs.

If you are running a business you can't afford down time meaning you now need two machines, one to work and the other as back up. will You also have to deal with regen cycles and paying operators to sit around waiting for parked regens to complete. When the machine suddenly stops working you are now waiting for a tech to come and fix it on site or float it to the shop for diagnostics and repairs.

Manufacturers are moving towards the cellphone model of business where customers pay and arm and a leg for new tech, and when it stops working you throw it away and buy new again. Win - win scenario.

I agree with most of what you wrote.

But not all models have to stop to re-gen. Some do that on the go, and some allow you to delay re-gen until you are ready for it to happen.

Some tractors don't have a DPF at all, or DEF. I had a 2019 Mahindra 6075 with no DEF or DPF because the engine passed govt emissions tests without them. But, as always, there's a trade off. I think the Mahindra mCRD engines run hotter at more fuel consumption to burn off cleaner. I put a 1000 hours on that tractor and didn't have issues with the way it ran.

 

[mikester]

I agree with most of what you wrote.

But not all models have to stop to re-gen. Some do that on the go, and some allow you to delay re-gen until you are ready for it to happen.

Some tractors don't have a DPF at all, or DEF. I had a 2019 Mahindra 6075 with no DEF or DPF because the engine passed govt emissions tests without them. But, as always, there's a trade off. I think the Mahindra mCRD engines run hotter at more fuel consumption to burn off cleaner. I put a 1000 hours on that tractor and didn't have issues with the way it ran.

FYI The OP was asking about new DEF machines not your DEF free Mahindra

Pay attention to every time you see a new transport truck with DEF sitting at the side of the road with the safety markers out. A lot of trucks are getting stuck into limp mode due to an error code in the computer that can only be resolved by a $500 service call from the dealer for a guy to show up, plug in a laptop and clear the code.

Some DEF machines force you into a parked regen. Think about that when you are paying a guy $30/hr to operate a machine for you and it's parked in the middle of a field somewhere waiting for the parked regen to complete.

Like you I'm hanging onto my 2015 M59TLB without the DEF/DPF fun.

Seems like we are getting to the point it's better to rent equipment and let the rental company deal with the BS issues of keeping the equipment running. This way I just make a call and have a new machine ready for me by the next morning when the other one goes down and I only pay for the hours I use.

 

[5030]

as older nice tractors become harder to find.

...as well as more expensive to purchase because Pre 4 owners (like myself) want a premium price when sold, like myself, they already know the pitfalls of a post 4 tractor like high pressure common rail injection and electronically controlled engines (ECM and assorted hardware you as an end user cannot fix). Just had my 02 M9 appraised and the appraiser told me it's worth substantially more than I paid for it new. Of course factoring in inflation and the devaluing dollar, it's really break even.

My issue is, with anything used in the tractor world, when buying used, there will always be issues that need addressed as well as no warranty so the onus of repair is entirely on you.

Do keep in mind that under EPA mandate, any emissions compliant tractor, DPF or DEF-DPF, the manufacturer has to warrant the emissions hardware and software (ECM) for 5 years, no exceptions. The issue is, of course, can just any dealer fix them, or be willing to if you buy the unit used from an individual.

The other issue with a unit that runs DEF, DEF freezes at 32 degrees (f), so an idle, not being used unit sitting in below freezing temps, the DEF will freeze in the tank and has to be artificially heated before it will flow, either by an electric heating element in the tank or by engine coolant or both and that adds another layer of complexity to the entire emissions system.

Before I retired from the truck dealership, DEF issues were always a big issue in big trucks and always a lot of down time, waiting for parts. An inoperative tractor or big truck becomes a liability instantly. That and clogged DPF units and the inherent cost of cleaning or replacement if not cleanable or the substrate in the DPF unit had failed. Tractors, unlike big trucks on the highway really aren't ever inspected for emissions compliance. Big trucks are and often at every weigh station or roadside DOT inspections.

However, failed emissions components on a tractor will often cause the engine to derate and go into 'limp' mode anyway.

 

[TimberFarm]

Yeah I don’t know why you feel the need to tell me that. I pretty sure one guys small diesel isn’t killing the environment, either. Now maybe a couple million running at the same time might have an affect, but even then I’m doubtful.
Currently I have 8 diesel engines and only one has an after treatment system.

I think the diesel emissions systems are a scam and a joke, too.

IMO, “screw the little guy” is why it’s on trucks and tractors and not ships, trains, etc.

But I don’t make the rules, the EPA does and if you want newer equipment over 25HP, you’ll have to run with DEF/DPF.

I just hit 50,000 miles on the 2020 Ram. Its run harder in a month than most people run a truck in a year and no issues. Of course a sensor is going to fail someday, but there’s not much I can do about it.

2020 Ram HO Cummins and my DPF just failed a couple weeks ago. I run the truck hard. Rarely ever drive under 60mph. Frequently towing some kind of trailer.
Did it suck that it went bad...yeah. At 48,100 miles it was covered under warranty.

 

[rockinbbar]

FYI The OP was asking about new DEF machines not your DEF free Mahindra

Pay attention to every time you see a new transport truck with DEF sitting at the side of the road with the safety markers out. A lot of trucks are getting stuck into limp mode due to an error code in the computer that can only be resolved by a $500 service call from the dealer for a guy to show up, plug in a laptop and clear the code.

Some DEF machines force you into a parked regen. Think about that when you are paying a guy $30/hr to operate a machine for you and it's parked in the middle of a field somewhere waiting for the parked regen to complete.

Like you I'm hanging onto my 2015 M59TLB without the DEF/DPF fun.

Seems like we are getting to the point it's better to rent equipment and let the rental company deal with the BS issues of keeping the equipment running. This way I just make a call and have a new machine ready for me by the next morning when the other one goes down and I only pay for the hours I use.

I've seen and heard for tractors with a certain type DPF force a parked re-gen, but not heard of DEF machines doing that.

Yeah, I was pretty sure what the OP was about, but as always, there's mass confusion and misinformation abounding from people here who don't have real time experience with what they are talking about.

FYI, I don't pay anyone to operate my machinery. I work cheaper than I can hire an operator, and I know who's ass to eat out if something gets torn up.

Not running older machines to avoid DPF or DEF either. My oldest is 2019 model, I believe that's the year... C245 loader which is 90hp DEF but no DPF.

Traded off a 10 year old Case 95C with DPF but no DEF. Also traded off that Mahindra which didn't have either.
New tractors are both Powerstar Series a 75 and a 120. 75 had DPF but no DEF and 120 has DEF but no DPF.

I know...It gets confusing.

 

[rockinbbar]

The other issue with a unit that runs DEF, DEF freezes at 32 degrees (f)

DEF freezes at 11-12 degrees (f). Not 32 degrees.

But it's still an issue of unreliability in much of the US.

Diesel itself starts gelling and becomes an issue at around 10 degrees (f), so you may have to add artificial heat to that source too.

 

[rockinbbar]

2020 Ram HO Cummins and my DPF just failed a couple weeks ago. I run the truck hard. Rarely ever drive under 60mph. Frequently towing some kind of trailer.
Did it suck that it went bad...yeah. At 48,100 miles it was covered under warranty.

My F350 Powerstroke 6.7 has both DEF and a DPF.
I have monitored my fuel mileage when the DPF is running, and it absolutely TANKS my fuel economy.

Gee, I wonder why we don't get 24mpg anymore after Govt stuck their fingers into everything?

 

[Atypical_decorum]

I've seen and heard for tractors with a certain type DPF force a parked re-gen, but not heard of DEF machines doing that.

Yeah, I was pretty sure what the OP was about, but as always, there's mass confusion and misinformation abounding from people here who don't have real time experience with what they are talking about.

FYI, I don't pay anyone to operate my machinery. I work cheaper than I can hire an operator, and I know who's ass to eat out if something gets torn up.

Not running older machines to avoid DPF or DEF either. My oldest is 2019 model, I believe that's the year... C245 loader which is 90hp DEF but no DPF.

Traded off a 10 year old Case 95C with DPF but no DEF. Also traded off that Mahindra which didn't have either.
New tractors are both Powerstar Series a 75 and a 120. 75 had DPF but no DEF and 120 has DEF but no DPF.

I know...It gets confusing.

Ummm... Eating ass is different than chewing ass....

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

DEF freezes at 11-12 degrees (f). Not 32 degrees.

But it's still an issue of unreliability in much of the US.

Diesel itself starts gelling and becomes an issue at around 10 degrees (f), so you may have to add artificial heat to that source too.

Not really. We buy "winter fuel", with additives to prevent cold weather issues. Or, in my case, I add a chemical additive to my regular fuel, Power Service is the brand name on the bottles I buy, just mix it according to the directions on the bottle for the temperatures in your operating climate. And, in my case, I've had zero fuel related issues down to an ambient air temperature of -45F. That's none of that "wind chill", bs. Tractors and equipment don't buy into the whole "wind chill" propaganda (made up temps to make folks feel better about being "cold").

So no external heat sources are required for the fuel tank or fuel storage on site. And my tractor and fuel sit in an unheated shed all winter. Still have to plug the tractor in, to warm the oil pan, trans sump, and engine block. That way I can just fire up and go with one cycle on the glow plugs, anytime I need to use it.

And when it's -40F, the wind is blowing at 40 mph, but the driveway needs clearing...

Well, we just call that "Tuesday".

 

[5030]

DEF freezes at 11-12 degrees (f). Not 32 degrees.

But it's still an issue of unreliability in much of the US.

Diesel itself starts gelling and becomes an issue at around 10 degrees (f), so you may have to add artificial heat to that source too.

Care to substantiate that or is that your opinion only. DEF is urea and deionized water and mostly water and last time I checked, water freezes at 32 degrees (f). DEF is (by EPA standard) supposedly 35% urea.

Far as diesel goes, the cloud point depends entirely on who is producing it.

 

[rockinbbar]

Care to substantiate that or is that your opinion only. DEF is urea and deionized water and mostly water and last time I checked, water freezes at 32 degrees (f). DEF is (by EPA standard) supposedly 35% urea.

Far as diesel goes, the cloud point depends entirely on who is producing it.

LOL. I wasn't just guessing.

Winter can pose special challenges for machines with diesel exhaust fluid.


Made from a mixture of technically pure urea and purified water, DEF freezes at 11 degrees Fahrenheit and -11 degrees Celsius and needs to be properly maintained and dispensed to preserve its quality, says the American Petroleum Institute.


Like water, DEF will expand up to 7% when frozen and can damage the storage tank if it is full or nearly full when it freezes. Keeping your DEF tank less than full in cold temperatures is a good idea.


If DEF freezes in the machine, do not put any additives in the tank to help it melt, API says. DEF needs to remain pure for it to work correctly. Instead, the heating element in the DEF tank will thaw it while the machine is running. On-spec DEF is specifically formulated to allow the fluid to thaw at the proper concentration to keep a machine operating smoothly.

Link: Important steps to handling DEF in the cold winter months