Is DEF that bad?

[mikester]

I agree with most of what you wrote.

But not all models have to stop to re-gen. Some do that on the go, and some allow you to delay re-gen until you are ready for it to happen.

Some tractors don't have a DPF at all, or DEF. I had a 2019 Mahindra 6075 with no DEF or DPF because the engine passed govt emissions tests without them. But, as always, there's a trade off. I think the Mahindra mCRD engines run hotter at more fuel consumption to burn off cleaner. I put a 1000 hours on that tractor and didn't have issues with the way it ran.

FYI The OP was asking about new DEF machines not your DEF free Mahindra

Pay attention to every time you see a new transport truck with DEF sitting at the side of the road with the safety markers out. A lot of trucks are getting stuck into limp mode due to an error code in the computer that can only be resolved by a $500 service call from the dealer for a guy to show up, plug in a laptop and clear the code.

Some DEF machines force you into a parked regen. Think about that when you are paying a guy $30/hr to operate a machine for you and it's parked in the middle of a field somewhere waiting for the parked regen to complete.

Like you I'm hanging onto my 2015 M59TLB without the DEF/DPF fun.

Seems like we are getting to the point it's better to rent equipment and let the rental company deal with the BS issues of keeping the equipment running. This way I just make a call and have a new machine ready for me by the next morning when the other one goes down and I only pay for the hours I use.

 

[5030]

as older nice tractors become harder to find.

...as well as more expensive to purchase because Pre 4 owners (like myself) want a premium price when sold, like myself, they already know the pitfalls of a post 4 tractor like high pressure common rail injection and electronically controlled engines (ECM and assorted hardware you as an end user cannot fix). Just had my 02 M9 appraised and the appraiser told me it's worth substantially more than I paid for it new. Of course factoring in inflation and the devaluing dollar, it's really break even.

My issue is, with anything used in the tractor world, when buying used, there will always be issues that need addressed as well as no warranty so the onus of repair is entirely on you.

Do keep in mind that under EPA mandate, any emissions compliant tractor, DPF or DEF-DPF, the manufacturer has to warrant the emissions hardware and software (ECM) for 5 years, no exceptions. The issue is, of course, can just any dealer fix them, or be willing to if you buy the unit used from an individual.

The other issue with a unit that runs DEF, DEF freezes at 32 degrees (f), so an idle, not being used unit sitting in below freezing temps, the DEF will freeze in the tank and has to be artificially heated before it will flow, either by an electric heating element in the tank or by engine coolant or both and that adds another layer of complexity to the entire emissions system.

Before I retired from the truck dealership, DEF issues were always a big issue in big trucks and always a lot of down time, waiting for parts. An inoperative tractor or big truck becomes a liability instantly. That and clogged DPF units and the inherent cost of cleaning or replacement if not cleanable or the substrate in the DPF unit had failed. Tractors, unlike big trucks on the highway really aren't ever inspected for emissions compliance. Big trucks are and often at every weigh station or roadside DOT inspections.

However, failed emissions components on a tractor will often cause the engine to derate and go into 'limp' mode anyway.

 

[TimberFarm]

Yeah I don’t know why you feel the need to tell me that. I pretty sure one guys small diesel isn’t killing the environment, either. Now maybe a couple million running at the same time might have an affect, but even then I’m doubtful.
Currently I have 8 diesel engines and only one has an after treatment system.

I think the diesel emissions systems are a scam and a joke, too.

IMO, “screw the little guy” is why it’s on trucks and tractors and not ships, trains, etc.

But I don’t make the rules, the EPA does and if you want newer equipment over 25HP, you’ll have to run with DEF/DPF.

I just hit 50,000 miles on the 2020 Ram. Its run harder in a month than most people run a truck in a year and no issues. Of course a sensor is going to fail someday, but there’s not much I can do about it.

2020 Ram HO Cummins and my DPF just failed a couple weeks ago. I run the truck hard. Rarely ever drive under 60mph. Frequently towing some kind of trailer.
Did it suck that it went bad...yeah. At 48,100 miles it was covered under warranty.

 

[rockinbbar]

FYI The OP was asking about new DEF machines not your DEF free Mahindra

Pay attention to every time you see a new transport truck with DEF sitting at the side of the road with the safety markers out. A lot of trucks are getting stuck into limp mode due to an error code in the computer that can only be resolved by a $500 service call from the dealer for a guy to show up, plug in a laptop and clear the code.

Some DEF machines force you into a parked regen. Think about that when you are paying a guy $30/hr to operate a machine for you and it's parked in the middle of a field somewhere waiting for the parked regen to complete.

Like you I'm hanging onto my 2015 M59TLB without the DEF/DPF fun.

Seems like we are getting to the point it's better to rent equipment and let the rental company deal with the BS issues of keeping the equipment running. This way I just make a call and have a new machine ready for me by the next morning when the other one goes down and I only pay for the hours I use.

I've seen and heard for tractors with a certain type DPF force a parked re-gen, but not heard of DEF machines doing that.

Yeah, I was pretty sure what the OP was about, but as always, there's mass confusion and misinformation abounding from people here who don't have real time experience with what they are talking about.

FYI, I don't pay anyone to operate my machinery. I work cheaper than I can hire an operator, and I know who's ass to eat out if something gets torn up.

Not running older machines to avoid DPF or DEF either. My oldest is 2019 model, I believe that's the year... C245 loader which is 90hp DEF but no DPF.

Traded off a 10 year old Case 95C with DPF but no DEF. Also traded off that Mahindra which didn't have either.
New tractors are both Powerstar Series a 75 and a 120. 75 had DPF but no DEF and 120 has DEF but no DPF.

I know...It gets confusing.

 

[rockinbbar]

The other issue with a unit that runs DEF, DEF freezes at 32 degrees (f)

DEF freezes at 11-12 degrees (f). Not 32 degrees.

But it's still an issue of unreliability in much of the US.

Diesel itself starts gelling and becomes an issue at around 10 degrees (f), so you may have to add artificial heat to that source too.

 

[rockinbbar]

2020 Ram HO Cummins and my DPF just failed a couple weeks ago. I run the truck hard. Rarely ever drive under 60mph. Frequently towing some kind of trailer.
Did it suck that it went bad...yeah. At 48,100 miles it was covered under warranty.

My F350 Powerstroke 6.7 has both DEF and a DPF.
I have monitored my fuel mileage when the DPF is running, and it absolutely TANKS my fuel economy.

Gee, I wonder why we don't get 24mpg anymore after Govt stuck their fingers into everything?

 

[Atypical_decorum]

I've seen and heard for tractors with a certain type DPF force a parked re-gen, but not heard of DEF machines doing that.

Yeah, I was pretty sure what the OP was about, but as always, there's mass confusion and misinformation abounding from people here who don't have real time experience with what they are talking about.

FYI, I don't pay anyone to operate my machinery. I work cheaper than I can hire an operator, and I know who's ass to eat out if something gets torn up.

Not running older machines to avoid DPF or DEF either. My oldest is 2019 model, I believe that's the year... C245 loader which is 90hp DEF but no DPF.

Traded off a 10 year old Case 95C with DPF but no DEF. Also traded off that Mahindra which didn't have either.
New tractors are both Powerstar Series a 75 and a 120. 75 had DPF but no DEF and 120 has DEF but no DPF.

I know...It gets confusing.

Ummm... Eating ass is different than chewing ass....

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

DEF freezes at 11-12 degrees (f). Not 32 degrees.

But it's still an issue of unreliability in much of the US.

Diesel itself starts gelling and becomes an issue at around 10 degrees (f), so you may have to add artificial heat to that source too.

Not really. We buy "winter fuel", with additives to prevent cold weather issues. Or, in my case, I add a chemical additive to my regular fuel, Power Service is the brand name on the bottles I buy, just mix it according to the directions on the bottle for the temperatures in your operating climate. And, in my case, I've had zero fuel related issues down to an ambient air temperature of -45F. That's none of that "wind chill", bs. Tractors and equipment don't buy into the whole "wind chill" propaganda (made up temps to make folks feel better about being "cold").

So no external heat sources are required for the fuel tank or fuel storage on site. And my tractor and fuel sit in an unheated shed all winter. Still have to plug the tractor in, to warm the oil pan, trans sump, and engine block. That way I can just fire up and go with one cycle on the glow plugs, anytime I need to use it.

And when it's -40F, the wind is blowing at 40 mph, but the driveway needs clearing...

Well, we just call that "Tuesday".

 

[5030]

DEF freezes at 11-12 degrees (f). Not 32 degrees.

But it's still an issue of unreliability in much of the US.

Diesel itself starts gelling and becomes an issue at around 10 degrees (f), so you may have to add artificial heat to that source too.

Care to substantiate that or is that your opinion only. DEF is urea and deionized water and mostly water and last time I checked, water freezes at 32 degrees (f). DEF is (by EPA standard) supposedly 35% urea.

Far as diesel goes, the cloud point depends entirely on who is producing it.

 

[rockinbbar]

Care to substantiate that or is that your opinion only. DEF is urea and deionized water and mostly water and last time I checked, water freezes at 32 degrees (f). DEF is (by EPA standard) supposedly 35% urea.

Far as diesel goes, the cloud point depends entirely on who is producing it.

LOL. I wasn't just guessing.

Winter can pose special challenges for machines with diesel exhaust fluid.


Made from a mixture of technically pure urea and purified water, DEF freezes at 11 degrees Fahrenheit and -11 degrees Celsius and needs to be properly maintained and dispensed to preserve its quality, says the American Petroleum Institute.


Like water, DEF will expand up to 7% when frozen and can damage the storage tank if it is full or nearly full when it freezes. Keeping your DEF tank less than full in cold temperatures is a good idea.


If DEF freezes in the machine, do not put any additives in the tank to help it melt, API says. DEF needs to remain pure for it to work correctly. Instead, the heating element in the DEF tank will thaw it while the machine is running. On-spec DEF is specifically formulated to allow the fluid to thaw at the proper concentration to keep a machine operating smoothly.

Link: Important steps to handling DEF in the cold winter months