Is General motors really in bad financial shape ?

kenmac · Jun 17, 2005

You say that this is due to supporting 1.1m for current employees health care & retirement,and that the top executives don't earn this much or more with their health care , retirement, stock options etc; etc; so that cutting their BIG FAT EARNINGS would'nt make a difference? The ones that earn the FAT pay checks always say that. OH! I GET IT ITS LABORS FAULT !!!! HOG WASH!!!!!!!!!!!! No one at the top wants to ever alter their standard of living. Like going from a 3 mill. house to a 1/4 of a mill. house.Lets cut the little man & we can keep our 3 mill. house. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

MikePA · Jun 17, 2005

Look where the same kind of 'them vs us, it's not our problem, it's their problem' got Caterpiller and the US steel industry. Each side digging in their heels until they both drop into the grave.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

getut · Jun 17, 2005

( So setting aside lousy handling, uncomfortable drivers' position, and bottom of the barrel reliability)

I agree with all that as long as you limit it to cars. For pickup trucks, the Japanese just don't "get it". Even when they make a large pickup they still miss the target even though technologically it imay be a shining example. As for driver comfort... its little things that just dont work. Take for instance, every Japanese vehicle I have ever been in have high mounted air vents. It is physically impossible to point them down far enough so that 100% of air is kept out of your eyes. I end up looking like a drug addict my eyes are so bloodshot if I do anything approaching an hour or beyond behind the wheel in a Japanese vehicle. Pedal placements too close or too far in relation to the steering wheel (adjust the seat for good steering wheel distance and your legs are in your chest, or vice versa). Trucks that are technologically sound, but if you forget to blow the leaves out of the back you are beyond weight capacity (joking on that last one heheheheheh).

Cactus · Jun 17, 2005

Did Caterpillar tank ???? I know John Deere had some rough times in the 80's but they managed to turn things around.....

Bird · Jun 17, 2005

Robert, I haven't driven many of the Japanese brands of pickups in recent years, so you may be right, but I did recently drive my brother-in-law's new Nissan full size pickup and I'd put it right on a par with the new F150 I recently drove as far as comfort, feel, and handling.

gizmo · Jun 17, 2005

No, I said 1.1 million employees, not 1.1 million dollars. This amounts to many BILLION dollars. And the 1.1M figure includes both management and labor.

coveredbridge · Jun 17, 2005

( The general problem with GM (& Ford & the Chrysler part of Diamler-Chrysler) is that they make lousy cars.

Case in point: the model year of the last American (made in Canada) vehicle I owned had had more recalls than Toyota had had on all models as far as the records went back 20 years or so.

So setting aside lousy handling, uncomfortable drivers' position, and bottom of the barrel reliability, why would I even consider buying another 'domestic', except at a hugely discounted price? Actually, since I can afford it, why would I put up with the aggravation.

GM and the other could chose to make good, reliable, vehicles. They don't, as a matter of corporate policy.

Until they learn how the market now works, they are on a steady slide into oblivion.
)

I have to take issue with your assertions, based upon my personal experience. At one time, I bought into this propaganda about the superior quality of foreign, and in particular Japanese cars. And, at one time, there may have been some truth to it. However, the one "foreign" car I bought ('94 Honda Accord EX) had just as many, if not more niggling problems as any "American" car I ever owned (except the '98 Durango - run, don't walk away from these!)

I've purchased a number of new GM vehicles over the past 12 years (whenever they added a door, I bought a new truck). While I've certainly had my fair share of problems with seals, lights, electronics, window regulators, etc., these problems seem no more frequent or serious to me than those of the Honda and Toyota owners I know.

Also, I got my first good look at Honda's new truck, the Ridgeline, yesterday. I don't know how they call that a truck! It looks like a Chevy Avalanche (not one of GM's better ideas) wannabe to me.

I know it may sound paranoid, but I really think a lot of this "reliability" reporting is just a anti-america bias in the press that is based in no small part on fuel efficiency issues that originated in the '70's.

My most recent auto purchase was a 2004 Chevy Monte Carlo LS. I have found it to be a very comfortable and reliable ride that handles and accelerates and brakes very well. It also gets about 25 mpg in everyday driving, about 5 mpg better than the 4 cyl Accord I owned.

I wish more people would give GM cars (and Ford for that matter) an objective evaluation and not be misled by the automotive media.

boustany · Jun 18, 2005

One way of looking at it is to say, yes, Toyota makes more money per car than GM, and that's because of costs.
The other way of looking at it is that GM has to practically pay people to buy their vehicles, because the designs and quality are awful.
All the incentives, discounting, and so on affect profitability as much as costs do. I would (and do) gladly pay up for a good, well designed, reliable vehicle. When I bought our 4runner and Cienna a couple years apart, I'm sure I paid more than for a Blazer and whatever minivan GM makes. I don't regret those decisions.
Don't blam the workers for their pensions. They were negotiated in good faith. There's always 2 parties at these negotiations.

boustany · Jun 18, 2005

Geez you guys always want to make it a paranoid 'Us' vs. 'Them'

If you think the press is biased and anti-american, you don't watch much TV or read many of your own newspapers (or, perhaps, you read too much of them, feeding your own paranoia).

Their are no 'Canadian' car makers, and 'American' and 'Foreign' vehicles are made here and in the US, out of 'foreign' and 'domestic' parts.

Now, Ford almost killed my family via our (Canadian made) Winstar with the magic collapsing front suspensions, a known safety defect they didn't even warn us about. Our catastrophe happened 2 days after a dealer service, but it was a 'fix on failure' (secret) recall. I guess it is anti-american for me to refuse to ever buy a product from a company which tried to lkill my family, but I'd do the same thing if my neighbour owned the company. I'm anti-kill your customers.

As for GM, every time I rent a Pontiac, I feel I'm trying to pilot a bathtub with poor handling and bad visibility. Thats not anti-amercain. Thats anti-bad design. The proof is in the pudding. GM pays people to buy their cars.

If people want to think that other people don't buy a company's products because of an alleged anti-american bias, go ahead. Run with that delusion. It isn't gonna help them.

Dargo · Jun 18, 2005

( had just as many, if not more niggling problems as any "American" car I ever owned (except the '98 Durango - run, don't walk away from these!) )

Ah ha! I knew I was odd!! I have one of the first 20 '98 (first year) Durango's that came off the line with the 5.9 liter engine. It took almost 3 months from the time I placed the order to come in. I work as a vendor to this dealer and know him well, so I got to fill out my own order sheet. I have positively every option that was available then except the rear air. With a relatively low ceiling, the rear A/C just seemed to exacerbate that issue.

Anyway, now with 105k miles on it, I've never had a single issue with the car/truck! Granted, it has never gone over 3k between oil changes and all other maintenance has been performed well ahead of schedule, and it has only spent the night outside when we've been on vacation. Oh yeah, even though it sits inside all the time, it has also been waxed 4 times a year. Maybe it's because of all the babying, but it's been great! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif I'm not complaining, but I'm only too aware that I seem to be an anomaly rather than a regular owner. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Oh yeah, also the 1 and only brand new Toyota I've ever bought was bought back by Toyota under the Lemon Law! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif 1995 was the first year for the Avalon, and mine spent more time during the first year in the dealership shop than at my house. Fortunatly the dealer provided us loaner cars, but it was aggrevating to pay for a car that you couldn't drive! After about 9 mos or so, Toyota simply said that there were so many problems with the car that they couldn't fix it, and bought it back. Of course, they screwed me and said that they had to take 9 months of depreciation off of the price. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif The fact was that I'd actually "used" the car for a total of 7 weeks!! I haven't bought a Toyota since. One was willed to me and I just sold it. Now, I have had great luck with Honda though.