Is there a bulletproof mower?

[jcmseven]

I have mentioned in my previous posts that I have been unable to duplicate some of the amazing mowing speeds claimed by some (you know, the "I used to mow my 10 acre lawn in 28 hours with my lawn tractor and now I mow it in 35 minutes with my ZTR") claims. To be fair, a very efficient tractor style machine like an X 700 will mow pretty fast. My ZTR is faster on the same lawns but the difference is not enormous, but notable. This 950 I just bought is a faster mower than the 757 I had a couple years ago and does a bit better job. I love it for mowing, but I also have a tractor and soon to be two Gators for my other tasks. Some may not have that situation and may need maximum versatility over maximum speed mowing. Minutes per lawn with less trimming adds up to substantial profit for a commercial mower but 10-15 minutes per acre for a homeowner may not be so beneficial unless someone is mowing a lot of grass. I mention this because in someone who may really need a little tractor for other tasks (such as an X series or 2305) they may not gain the benefits seen by commercial mowers on their property, and could lose a fair amount of versatility. I know there are some other implements offered for these ZTRs to do other tasks, but they really do not do those things as well as a tractor would.

John M

 

[Scooby074]

I also question those wild ZTR claims. I save probable 45 mins on my property with my 540. But thats due mostly to Hydrostatic, and a wider deck that helps with edging.

More power helps but there comes a point where you cant go faster or you get shook up and the cut suffers.

 

[jgrreed]

My ZTR claim isn't that wild, but if the lawn is smooth, you can definitely mow at 8 or more MPH and still get a very nice cut. The time spent going around trees/poles/planters/wellheads/septic lids/kids toys tightly and accurately once on a ZTR instead of 3 times on a tractor has to add up pretty quickly. They are bloody rough if the lawn isn't smooth though.

If you need to mow, rototill, blow snow, etc and you only want/can afford one machine, get a small tractor. If you can afford it, get a bigger tractor that can do some solid work, and a separate lawn mower.

I can't even begin to imagine the damage I would cause around the house with a finish mower behind my tractor.... it'd be ugly......

-Jer.

 

[jcmseven]

The lawns I mow are not all that rough, but almost any lawn that is not a golf course has some variation in the terrain. I found that my 595 X series (the equivalent of today's 748) with its high floatation 26x12x12 tires would run pretty fast over most lawns, mowing at about 6 mph with the 62c deck, including hills. At that speed it did a great job. My previous 757 and current 950 mow much faster, but much over 7-8 mph the ride gets so rough that one has to slow down. Also, the cut is fairly smooth at 7-8 mph but less smooth above this particularly if the machine is bouncing around on its flat, hard 24x12x12 tires and short wheelbase. Also, the 18000 fpm blade tip speed is impressive, but it is not that much faster than a 14,800 fpm BTS in reality and probably does not equate to being able to mow twice as fast with an equivalent cut. There is a You Tube video of a Gravely ZTR in Australia mowing very fast in a soccer field. The speed is impressive, but it is a soccer field and when one looks closely it is missing a lot of grass along the way. In short, I like my ZTR, but it is not enough better to me and most private users to bag a tractor style if one has some tractor things to do also. We used to have my parents' place mowed professionally before I took it back over. The person mowing it is a great guy but he attempted to set land speed records while doing so, mowing at 8-10 mph at most times. He looked as though he was riding a bucking bronco and the cut was pretty marginal when he was done, but he was fast. His ZTR was not as nice as mine and I know I could not do a decent job at that speed. I suppose my point here is that if our OP, or anyone else for that matter, is thinking a ZTR will mow the 6 acres per hours claimed in many cases they may wish to rethink that.

John M

 

[jenkinsph]

Whie a ztr mower is faster than the traditional riding mower both top of the line models will mow plenty fast enough for me. That is only part of having a nice lawn though and I like the flexibility of the traditional mowers for the lawn maintenance issues. Just depends on what you need to do, in my area we have few large areas to mow and need to do lots of smoothing and prep work to have a lawn. If I were mowing large areas such as open fields or a campus I would have dedicated front wide area mowers.

 

[Dargo]

The lawns I mow are not all that rough, but almost any lawn that is not a golf course has some variation in the terrain. I found that my 595 X series (the equivalent of today's 748) with its high floatation 26x12x12 tires would run pretty fast over most lawns, mowing at about 6 mph with the 62c deck, including hills. At that speed it did a great job. My previous 757 and current 950 mow much faster, but much over 7-8 mph the ride gets so rough that one has to slow down. Also, the cut is fairly smooth at 7-8 mph but less smooth above this particularly if the machine is bouncing around on its flat, hard 24x12x12 tires and short wheelbase. Also, the 18000 fpm blade tip speed is impressive, but it is not that much faster than a 14,800 fpm BTS in reality and probably does not equate to being able to mow twice as fast with an equivalent cut. There is a You Tube video of a Gravely ZTR in Australia mowing very fast in a soccer field. The speed is impressive, but it is a soccer field and when one looks closely it is missing a lot of grass along the way. In short, I like my ZTR, but it is not enough better to me and most private users to bag a tractor style if one has some tractor things to do also. We used to have my parents' place mowed professionally before I took it back over. The person mowing it is a great guy but he attempted to set land speed records while doing so, mowing at 8-10 mph at most times. He looked as though he was riding a bucking bronco and the cut was pretty marginal when he was done, but he was fast. His ZTR was not as nice as mine and I know I could not do a decent job at that speed. I suppose my point here is that if our OP, or anyone else for that matter, is thinking a ZTR will mow the 6 acres per hours claimed in many cases they may wish to rethink that.

John M

I'll have to respectfully disagree. I mow well over 10 acres each week, including several inside corners and around a lake. I have 6' and 10' finish mowers I can put behind my tractors. Still, with just a 5' deck, my ZTR more than cuts my mowing time in half.

To start with, it saves well over an hour of trimming that would be required with even the absolute best lawn mower made to look like a tractor. The front mount ZTR probably saves an hour alone in string trimming around nearly a thousand feet of shoreline of my lake. Even if you have a mower deck that stands 12" out from the side of the old fashioned lawn mower, I couldn't come close to cutting all the grass around my lake.

As far as implements go, unless it comes to having an FEL or pulling a plow, my front mount ZTR Grasshopper will clear snow twice as fast as a 'lawn tractor' with it's snow blower attachment. I think you are only comparing a lawn mower designed to look like a tractor with mid mount ZTR machines. A mid mount ZTR is a dedicated mowing machine and, obviously, costs less. A true front mount ZTR is far more versatile. Perhaps a more appropriate analogy would be comparing a Gator to a Toolcat. They may somewhat resemble each other, but their abilities are vastly different.

If I didn't already have cabbed tractors with loaders, excavators, track loaders, dozer, and excavator, I'd like to have a Toolcat for my front mount mower. Money wise, it's not really the best use of funds to only use a Toolcat for mowing though.

 

[beemerphile]

i think "out front deck" is the key to mowing happiness unless you have engineered your landscape to completely eliminate headroom issues. I currently use a Ventrac 4231 because I have lots of slopes that make ZTR's come spinning down the slope like crashing fighter planes. I also use the rough-cut mower and power rake with the Ventrac so it does more than cut grass.

If I was just cutting grass and had limited slopes, I'd be on a Grasshopper Diesel with the out front deck. I had to buy my wife an X300 though because she is afraid of the bigger mowers and needs to keep the lawn trimmed around the house when I am traveling. The little JD is a well thought out machine (especially in accommodating maintenance tasks) but I haven't owned it long enough to speak to its durability.

 

[jcmseven]

Dargo, I think you speak to the reason you may have had such good luck with the outfront ZTR you use. Based on what you mention, it sounds as though you have the ideal machine for your terrain and obstacles and you have the ideal terrain for your machine, making a marriage in heaven. Based on your description I have no doubt that on your property you are having these results. My point is that where I live, the center mount ZTR's with the mower mounted behind the caster wheels (i.e., carriage wheels) is the more popular design for both large property owners and commercial mowers due to their ease of transport and compact dimensions. Commercial mowers here rarely buy the out front type mowers. These mid mount type ZTR mowers have mowing speed claims that defy belief, and with good reason. They do not mow as fast as claimed in many cases. Most of the ZTR mowing speeds are based on comparing them to average, standard style lawn and garden tractors, not to machines that are very efficient, such as an X series JD for an example. With hydrostatic drive, lots of engine and PTO HP and a solid chassis and relatively long wheelbase (not to mention the AWS option on the 729 and 749) these tractors do a great job and they do it fast. Having used the more-traditional center mount ZTR's I cannot attest to the front mount ZTR speed, but I can say with what many consider to be among the most efficient ZTR's out there, I simply cannot half my mowing times--not even close. That said, there are many areas where I live that one simply cannot safely use a ZTR, front mount or center mount style, due to the steep hills. This applies much less to the area I mow for my parents, as it is not very hilly or challenging, and my ZTR is STILL not tremendously faster than my old X series. It is faster, just not wildly faster. In my locale where it is VERY steep, a tractor-style or Ventrac/Steiner type machine would likely be the better choice. I suspect in this case, we have both arrived at examples suggesting how the terrain and topography affects the appropriateness of our machines. I, as I am sure you feel also, do not wish our OP or another potential buyer to be disappointed if their brand new machine does not mow as quickly as advertised. In your particular case, with your experience and high quality machine and the terrain in which you are mowing, you likely are able to better extract performance gains that others might not.

John M

 

[Dargo]

JCM, I think the X series from JD is a great machine; likely the best available to compete with a mid mount ZTR and come close to a front mount ZTR on slopes. Without a doubt, the Ventrac/Steiner machines are, IMHO, the best solution for steep slopes. However, one of the main reasons I first bought a front mount Grasshopper was because our local school corporation had been using them to mow the "bowl" at the HS I attended.

This natural bowl stadium built into a large hillside is extremely steep and, trust me, was used as punishment for not doing something right on the football team. There is an old tree at the top of the practice field bowl. The worst words you ever wanted to hear was "Go run the tree....twice!"

Ages ago, they used to mow the sides with push mowers with ropes attached to them and several guys handling the ropes at the top of the hill. You should have seen my surprise when I first saw Grasshopper front mounts running all over the sides of this bowl! They not only could easily mow the bowl, but some guys would stop, circle around a small tree, and continue on up the hill. If the grass was a bit wet, they just had to back up the hill. I won't consider driving my full utility sized tractor up the back side of the dam to my lake unless I have the FEL on and a good scoop of dirt in the bucket. I can easily back up the hill mowing with a front mount Grasshopper.

As I mentioned, I tried mid mount mowers when I had a mowing business. They were less expensive and you could get more on a trailer (now not the case since most Grasshoppers etc. have power folding decks that fold up). Even taking runs at the dam on dry grass, the front of a mid mount mower quickly raised and I had to immediately slam the levers into reverse to keep from flipping over backwards. Trying to back up hills with a mid mount proved to be a silly effort.

But, you are correct, my property is well suited for front mount mowers, especially with several inside corners, the steep hills and the lake/pond to mow around. I would honestly think that, if properly ballasted, an X series JD mower could climb as steep of a hill, if not steeper, but if you ever got one turned sideways by sliding, it would be real trouble. I've slid sideways down hills on front mount Grasshoppers thousands of times, literally. They've never felt tippy even then. It's sort of like the stability of the old JD 6X4 Gators; they were so wide and with a low center of gravity, I think you'd have to try to turn one over.

I've only ran one Ventrac/Steiner machine in the past, and it had duals on it. It obviously felt extremely stable. My guess is that without the duals, they'd still have an advantage on slopes over a front mount ZTR, but not nearly as much as one would think. If I had a need for a smaller machine with an FEL, I'd consider something in the Ventrac/Steiner series. Since I don't, it's hard to beat a ZTR machine that's rated to finish mow over 7 acres an hour. I may have mentioned it before, but once I pushed the goal posts out of the way, I mowed a complete soccer field in well under 45 minutes, including the slightly higher cut around the edges where the spectators sit. That's faster than I could mow it with a 100 hp utility tractor with a Woods RM990 finish mower behind it! The blade tip speed on the Woods just wasn't fast enough for me to run any faster without leaving areas more laid down than cut. I certainly would have lost that bet is I'd been asked to bet which could mow a soccer field faster!